Could we accept a presidential candidate...

[PrincessFiona]

if his wife intended on working full-time in her chosen profession?

Given the media coverage of Theresa Kerry (who I think is about as warm and fuzzy as a cactus, btw) and the fact that she doesn't intend to quit acting as director on some philanthropic boards, I started thinking about the role of women in society today.

Would we have accepted Ronald Reagan (for example) if Nancy had been a neurosurgeon unwilling to quit working and 'stand by her man' or would that have been unpalattable to us. If Laura Bush was a high powered attorney working on her own career would we view the Bush's differently?

When Hillary tried to get more involved in politics she was bashed horribly for her efforts and ended up really backing down until Bill got out of office.

Are we ok with electing a president with a wife who continues to do her own thing or is it still a requirement for men in power that the woman stand behind him?

Interesting question. I wonder how much it affected Howard Dean that his wife continued her medical practice while he was campaigning for primaries. (Not that I'm saying that she should not have done that). I can't remember -- what were Elizabeth Dole's intentions if Bob Dole had won the election in 1996?

I don't see what's wrong with it at all! I'd like to think we've come a long way from the days of my stupid Aunt Mary who wouldn't vote for anyone unless she liked his wife (she liked Pat Nixon a lot, by the way). Isn't there some huge percentage of marriages out there where both husband and wife have careers? I would think that would make a candidate MORE appealing, because it reflects what more real people do.

If Laura Bush were some high powered attorney (or even a part-time schoolteacher) I'd actually have more (er, I mean, some,) respect for the Bush's. I don't see why a President's wife has to fit into the Jackie Kennedy/American Aristocracy mode of supporting little charities, hosting tea parties, redecorating the White House and doing a little light campaigning for her husband. That's not how most of us live, but it's being put out there as what we're supposed to envy. As a woman, I'm disgusted by that.

[Auspicious]

I can't remember -- what were Elizabeth Dole's intentions if Bob Dole had won the election in 1996?

She was very clear in saying that she would continue to head the Red Cross just as she had been.

I think people would accept it as long as the career in question is seen as having some kind of philanthropic or social-service type spin to it, since that's what First Ladies are pretty much expected to do anyway. I'm pretty sure head of the Red Cross, philanthropist, and doctor would all get a pass. Mergers and Acquisitions? Probably not.

Mergers and Acquisitions? Probably not.

I forgot to answer the question -- I could accept the spouse of a president who continued in their profession and I think that quite a few people could as well, depending on the profession, as Julie points out. Not only do those professions have a "feel-good" angle but there might be less concern for conflict of interest.

I just re-read the first post. I think what scares me the most is that after all this time, women are still expected to be "nice" above all. I read an interview with Theresa Heinz Kerry and found her intimidating (she's a hell of a lot smarter and better connected than I am), but she's more like me personally than most women I come into contact with (I'm not very warm and fuzzy either) and I'd love to sit down and talk with her.

Nice is fine, but "nice at any cost"--the sunny, skinny, always-agreeable woman we're all supposed to be is a synonym for martyr, codependent, doormat, professional victim and vacant vessel. And I didn't get a Master's Degree and work half my life to be one of those things.

[DCJenn]

As I have travelled this fabulous country of ours, I have realized that "Middle America" is really a place. It's not a physical place, but a mental place. I have overheard numerous conversations with people who 1) don't like Kerry because he doesn't smile 2) don't like Bush because he smirks 3) thinks Laura Bush is a Saint, Hillary is Satan and Jackie was God 4) think women who work are going to hell

However, personally, I could give a good rat's ass what the President's wife does. I certainly hope that my job has no impact on what people think of my husband's performance at his job. I know that there are people who think that he should have a problem with my hours and days on the road. He laughs and tells them that he prefers it that way. (and most of the time, we both do!)

Teresa Heinz (as she's really known in DC) is a very interesting woman, who loved her first husband dearly (and he was a Republican, let's not forget) loves her second husband dearly- loves her kids and is a fantastic manager of the Heinz Foundations. She's good at what she does. Why should she stop doing it? Laura Bush stopped working when the brainless twins were born, (oh, that was unkind) but jeez, if any town needs a decent librarian in the public library system it's DC. I'd love to have her come back to work for that reason alone!

What people do or don't do in their marriages has got to be their business. Why do we care if J.Lo. and Marc Antony got married? Why does any one care what infertility treatments Brooke Shields and Courteney Cox used.

I am personally tired of this whole reality TV, tabloid journalism, invasion of personal space and privacy crap anyway.

I don't like Geroge W. Bush based on his policies, not because Laura doesn't work. I like Kerry based on policies, not because Teresa has opinions that are public.

Jenn

[fluffhead]

Right On.

However, personally, I could give a good rat's ass what the President's wife does.

Jenn, please, please tell me that the people who comment on your work schedule to your husband are not his fellow residents and fellows.

Found this on slate.com re: the "Washington Wives" documentary on A&E.

The most astute talking-head commentary comes from Sally Quinn, the no-nonsense Washington social maven and wife of WaPo honcho Ben Bradlee. Among Sally's sharp aperçus: "Everybody in Vermont looks like Judy Dean." If so, get me to the Green Mountain State, because the 50-year-old Dean is cute as a bug's ear in her blue jeans, collegiate sweaters, and big toothy smile. The brief Dean section of the film is the most depressingly revealing of all, as Judy Steinberg Dean's insistence on staying in Vermont to run her medical practice emerges as one of the key reasons her husband's campaign lost steam so quickly after the Gore endorsement. Sally Quinn opines that in 20 years, all first wives (or husbands) will be as independent as Judy Dean, but that the country is not yet ready—a hunch endorsed by Teresa Heinz Kerry's stipulation to reporters that "I'm not a feminist in the sense of being angry at all men." Oh, there's another kind?

Full article is at: http://slate.msn.com/id/2104085/

[mommax3]

I don't really care what a president's spouse does, either, but it needs to NOT be political. I think that Hilary's problem (trying VERY hard to be diplomatic here, because I don't like her AT ALL) is that she tried to take such a political role......no one voted her into office, and she didn't have the resume that other presidential advisors commonly have. Thus the backlash. I resented her being put into a position to develop and possibly determine policy simply by virtue of who her spouse happened to be.

I agree that a service-type job is going to be more palatable to the American people.

I also think that when a President looks like a "typical" American, (ie has had to work for a living at some point and is not a career politician......will that ever happen again? ) his/her spouse will be more likely to have a career and be less likely to give it up.

Sally

[PrincessFiona]

This is an interesting issue to me on many levels....and I do remember there was a lot of Dean wife bashing "why isn't she on the trail with him? Does she support him?" during the primaries.

As a doctor's husband/wife how do you guys see this played out (not that our husband's/wive are presidents..though my husband certainly could see himself as the grand dictator 8) ). It has been my experience (very limited, mind you) that there is an expectation that the wife of the budding physician be a sah wife/parent and fully support her 'man'....with a smile on her face (ie no complaining about call schedules, exhaustion or his absence). Again...this is simply my teeeny, tiny experience that I'm generalizing so its' why I'm asking.

A comment made to me while my husband was doing fellowship (this was from a female working in his office) "Why dont' you just stay at home and spend his money(I was in grad school)" Ummmm...what money and yes...it has always been my dream to stay at home and spend someone else's money NOT!

When Thomas was an intern and I started taking a class a semester in order to get out of the house and keep my sanity I did not find one person who supported it...and I have to be honest here...the worst offenders were the spouses. How many "I'm just proud to support my husband' comments did I hear ...Yes..I'm proud to support my husband in any endeavor, but I have to tell you that I expect a little something in return...like a relationship...like the ability to also be able to carve out a little piece of life for myself.

I have to say that it is something that I really resented about the training years...

Now that we are past that it isn't as big of an issue....I basically have reached a point though that I don't care what someone else's opinion is on the issue...back then I did really take it to heart.

Is my experience and isolated one?

[Phoebe]

I don't care what she does. I do think it was funny how she told that reporter to "shove it". It might be nice to see something different in the White House for the First Lady. As for her continuing to work, I think it would be one of those things, "Damned if you do, damned if you don't."

Jennifer

[Auspicious]

It has been my experience (very limited, mind you) that there is an expectation that the wife of the budding physician be a sah wife/parent and fully support her 'man'....with a smile on her face (ie no complaining about call schedules, exhaustion or his absence). Again...this is simply my teeeny, tiny experience that I'm generalizing so its' why I'm asking.

That's interesting. So far I've only gotten the opposite of this. When people ask about our plans for the next few years and I mention that it's possible that if we reach a point where he's in residency and we have little ones at home I might stay home, I always get this look . . . that's difficult to describe, but it's definitely not approval. If I do decide to stay home I think it's going to cause some consternation. I've made other choices that made people nervous, though, and it's always worked out well, so I'm not too worried about this one yet.

I think the unrealistic expectations I'm facing are more that some people aren't quite getting that you can't really follow the established "two-career family" model without a hitch when one of those careers is as a physician. So far, though, I feel like I'm definitley getting signals that people expect me to continue my career uninterrupted even after we have kids.

We're still early in the process, though. I'm sure I'll hear many many more opinions before this is all over.

[Sheherezade]

The whole "shove it" thing was interesting to me...does anyone know the whole story? I read that the comment came during a discussion of the lack of civility in politics and "could have been ironic". Does that mean this could just be the meida making a serious issue out of a joke? I mean was she just being funny?

Ms. Heinz-Kerry, What do you think about the lack of civility in politics these days?

Well, Mr. Reporter, I think it stinks and if you don't agree you should just shove it.

I HATE it when the press does that. Since I joke about everything, I would crash and burn in the first week of a political campaign. So much for MY hubby's chances

As for the question, I don't have a problem with the wife working at all. I have wondered (with Dean's wife) how the secret service would handle "protecting" the first lady when seeing patients or just going about her normal work routine. I see a great SNL skit with a woman patient getting a pelvic being told to ignore the two guys/women with suits and ear microphones standing to the sides of the room.

I think the issue reflects (partially) the problem we have in our country with women's careers vs. childcare. Actually, I think it is just women with children young enough to require care (under 18??) working that gets people up in arms these days. I guess that's progress if before ALL women were suspect if working. I am curious how people would feel if the First Lady had a baby and a 5 year old and worked full time vs. if she had older children in school vs. if she had college age kids vs. if she had no kids at all. My guess is people would object less and less to her working as the kids got older. Of course , I could also see some people complaining about the national "costs" associated with her working, blah blah blah. I also suspect people would be uncomfortable with a childless presidential couple. Politics really is a lose-lose situation IMHO.
I know this is just more assessing the personal life of our public figures but that seems to have become a national pastime. I don't see it going away soon.

Angie

[mommax3]

I didn't really get that, Kris. There were 32 OB/Gyn residents when my husband was an intern. Of those who were married with children, (about half) the non-physician spouse stayed home in all but two or three cases. And two of those SAH spouses were male.

We ALL complained about the amount of call our spouses pulled and the hours they worked. The level of committment to being a stay-at-home parent fell along a spectrum, but I don't remember anyone being goody-two-shoes about it.

The residents were working horrible hours, most of us did not have family anywhere near, and we all felt the catch-22 of our lives......we were going nuts at home sometimes, but the stress level of our lives would only go up if we tried to work AND do everything at home.

DH's residency was extreme.....and it was military, so we were paid a little more than civilian residents, but none of the women I hung around with during that time were Stepford wives, and the guy spouses that I got to know were awesome, as well.

Right now, I have accepted that most people will NEVER understand the difficulties that my husband's profession subjects us to, or if they do understand, they think that the salary negates the difficulties. I had a conversation the other day with someone who was in shock that my husband has to work a full day after he pulls call. What I wanted to do was tell them how minor that is to us now, after residency, but there is really no point. People don't get it unless they (or someone very close to them) have lived it.

If people want to categorize me in a certain way because my husband is a doctor and I stay home, so be it. I have more important things to do than worry about how I am being perceived, although it does piss me off when people get that knowing look around me when there is a discussion about prices or money in general. I want to SCREAM at them the amount of debt we have.......but it would make no difference.

I do tend to feel more comfortable around other physician families for this reason......I get tired of having to explain the crapside of medicine over and over, and I get tired of living with the assumptions of others. I like knowing other medical spouses who live their lives as part-time single parents....it makes me feel less bitter about the whole thing.

Anyway, this thread has veered off in a whole different direction, but I would be interested to hear about others' experiences in this area.

Sally