Terror alerts: Useful? ... or not?

[mommax3]

Regarding the articles (thanks, Julie) I have to admit that I was creeped out by the first one and not really reassured by the second one, although it is true that nothing happened on the flight. I don't pay a whole lot of attention to the terror alerts since I live in a backwater and don't really expect that I am anywhere near a target. As far as the new/old information goes that led to this latest terror alert, I wouldn't put it past either party to use stuff like this to their advantage, but I also think that it is possible that this latest arrest has provided authorities (Tom Ridge et al) with enough new information that suddenly some of the old stuff makes sense.

And finally, I don't want to start WWIII here, and I will be hightailing it off the boards as soon as I post this because I am not looking forward to the fallout that the following might cause, but I have been stewing about this since I read it here a few days ago.....

So I fear it's just to get the current regime re-elected,

Saddam Hussein in power = a regime
George Bush in power = NOT a regime, no matter what you think of him and the people that surround him

I realize many of you don't like him and I can live with that, but using that word to describe our lives and the freedoms we have here minimizes the horrors that people have lived with through the years in other countries. That's all......now I will run away.

Sally

[PrincessFiona]

I was waiting for one of you to come out here and tell us we liberals had fallen off the cliff..Go sally!!! And you were so polite about it...truly, I think if I felt as strongly pro-Bush I would have had a heart attack...Of course, I'm a diehard liberal...so let me go take a leap off that cliff to catch whoever started this hoo-ha...

kris

As far as the new/old information goes that led to this latest terror alert, I wouldn't put it past either party to use stuff like this to their advantage, but I also think that it is possible that this latest arrest has provided authorities (Tom Ridge et al) with enough new information that suddenly some of the old stuff makes sense.

That could be a possibility. I didn't see the whole speech by Ridge, only a snippet (edited by the liberal media for my enjoyment ). I think that the Bush administration could have saved itself A LOT of trouble by saying something along the lines of: While the information that we captured is three years old, it augments newer intelligence and suggests the possibility of an immenent threat (or not). By conceding any holes in the information upfront, their motives seem less political and the arguement for changing the alert stronger.

If I lived in NYC or DC, someone saying that either city is a target would not be all that interesting or change my day to day life. But, if I worked for Citibank, that news release might have shaken me a little. I mean, a general threat to the entire city is one thing, a specific building is another. For that reason, I think that Ridge and friends should be a little more careful and thorough about what they say -- doing so may have the added benefit of lending them some credibility in such matters.

As to the regime thing....you're right. As much as it concerns me that our civil liberties are being chipped away, we've got it pretty good (not that that is any justification for infringing on civil liberties, of course).

[SueC]

Julie, I have only read the first article so far, but if it really freaked me out! If I had been on that flight I would have been a basket case. As for me, I don't really pay much attention to the terror alerts, but then again they never seem to be talking about my neck of the woods so I don't have much reason to panic. Now if there was some huge threat to a city I was about to visit, I might take heed.

[SueC]

OK, I read the second article and I feel a little better now. BTW, that salon website seems pretty cool!

[fluffhead]

Saddam Hussein in power = a regime
George Bush in power = NOT a regime, no matter what you think of him and the people that surround him

I'm in agreement with Sally that George Bush's administration is not as harsh or as despotic as Hussein's, however didactically I disagree about the usage of "regime."
"Regime" simply refers to a form of government. In popular usage it usually denotes a govt that tries to limit freedoms more than another administration might. So using the term to refer to our current leaders is, I think, quite appropriate.

[mommax3]

Okay, Fluff, but in my experience, (which is limited, I will admit, since my kids don't converse on that level yet) the term has been used to apply to govts that have drastically limited freedoms to the point where there really aren't any. (Actually, after writing that, I am realizing that I am heading up a pretty repressive regime in my own home.....something I am sure I will hear about when my oldest learns the word :P )

I feel that calling our current govt a regime (while technically correct, as you point out) is like calling a mosquito bite a puncture wound.

Do you all really feel less "free" under Bush than you did prior to his time in office? I am not being sarcastic here.....I am really interested to know.

Sally

[PrincessFiona]

OK...I'll bite. Yes, I feel less free! (I have a baby at my feet so this may not be too coherent) It used to be 'ok' to have a different opinion than the president and the current administration. Now if you don't support Bush's war efforts in Iraq, etc you are a treasonist, should move to France, you are a 'liberal' (egads ), you are responsible for deaths abroad because you 'empower the terrorists' 8O, you are anti-american etc, etc. The country has become so polarized that it is impossible to even really talk politics for the most part anymore.

I don't have a problem with Bush because I 'hate him/don't like him/think he's a moron' or whatever...I have a problem with Bush because of his policies...I do not think that the Iraq war was necessary...I said it before the war and I will continue to say it now. There were no wmd's (and in 2000 Powell and Rumsfeld were all too eager to tell the public that the arms-building capabilities of Iraq had been all but wiped out), the attrocities that happened in Iraq happened 20+ years ago and we were on his side at that time and did nothing about it (except give him more weapons) and we went in without taking a good hard look at history and what happens when a dictator falls...ie chaos, looting, battling religious factions..obviously, this was covered in a class that the current administration chose to skip when they were in college. To top it off, we alienated ourselves form the rest of the world.

Why is that important...we are no longer a global economy...we are a global community. Love 'em or hate 'em...the europeans belong to that world community too. What happens in one part of the world does not just effect us. The UN looked at the intel we provided pre-Iraq and told us that there were too many gaps..that things didn't add up...they asked to be allowed to finish the inspections and then reconvene...we said "no, pull your men out, we're going in". We were not willing to hear constructive criticism, consider other options, etc...we just went in bombs ablazing, killing more innocent civilians than we lost in 9/11. Forget that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.

As a result, America is even more hated throughout the world...not because we're 'free' (which we aren't anymore..patriot act etc) but because we are arrogant and demanding..we don't participate in the environmental summits with the world, won't compromise on anything..but expect the world to bow out our feet...Now there are even more extremists out to hurt our people....our country. I feel much less free.

hiding now.

[spotty_dog]

Regarding the Women's Wall Street Journal article:

It's been postulated that the whole thing was a publicity stunt. I mean, who had heard of the WWSJ before this?

Snopes.com put together a very nice evaluation of the story, backed up by several sources.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/skyterror.asp

[PrincessFiona]

You're kidding??? My dad is a pilot and he told me this as if it were the gospel truth.....I have to snopes my dad...

[spotty_dog]

Well, I think nobody's arguing that most of the stuff actually happened. Yes, Syrian musicians were on board that plane. Yes, a woman freaked about it. The question is whether they *were* doing bomb dry-runs and whether the officials under-estimated the danger and whether the woman was just observant and not racist.

All signs point to no on all counts.

See also:

http://www.donaldsensing.com/2004/07/ca ... -hoax.html

and the follow-up

http://www.donaldsensing.com/2004/07/ai ... light.html

[PrincessFiona]

Interesting...thanks....I think that I'll send that along to my dad

Do I feel less free on a day to day basis as I conduct my life? Not really. But I am saying that from the cushy position of being a white American citizen. There are some things that the US is doing that does make me uncomfortable.
For one, it seems that the US selectively applies the Geneva Conventions -- that concerns me on a moral level (how the US treats people it captures) and also concerns me regarding the safety of members of the US armed forces. If the US doesn't follow the Geneva Conventions, why should anyone else have to?
Second, as I said, I am a US citizen. It is scary to me the way that immigrants with immigration violations have been treated (detained indefinitely).
Third, it's the slippery slope argument. It's easy to say that since I'm a US citizen and I'm not planning to join a terrorist group, I have nothing to worry about. Or, since I'm not held at Guatanamo Bay, I don't really need to be bothered about those detainees being denied access to legal counsel, right? But what's next? What if the government starts mining data to find out more about me? I haven't done anything wrong, but that is definitely not ok with me. What about the Homeland Security dept seeking legislation for the authority to postpone the November elections in light of a terrorist attack (or threat??)? Sure, there needs to be a plan in place in case of an attack during the elections -- but leaving that to the discretion of the Homeland Security Department? Yikes.

Um, yeah, we're all less free because of Bush - HITLER INCARNATE!!!! BURN HIM!!!!

This is obviously a board populated by white, privileged, superior people who haven't spent a lot of time in nations that actually do have problems with despotic leaders restricting freedom. Forgive me I must once again. It's like chicken little: THE SKY IS FALLING!

As to the terror alerts:

The people who are loudly decrying terror alerts and claiming that President Bush is the newest idiot dictator in the world would be just as hyper-critical of Bush if he DIDN'T have the terror alerts. Then we would be hearing, "What's wrong with that idiot, Bush? He should have instituted some sort of early-warning system for potential terrorist attacks/targets."

And, heaven forbid this is a NEW system and has yet to be perfected (ie mistakes are made and the idea needs more refinement which will evolve in time and with use).

Once again - THIS is a debate forum? I feel like I stumbled on a country club....

[PrincessFiona]

Um, yeah, we're all less free because of Bush - HITLER INCARNATE!!!! BURN HIM!!!!

This is obviously a board populated by white, privileged, superior people who haven't spent a lot of time in nations that actually do have problems with despotic leaders restricting freedom. Forgive me I must once again. It's like chicken little: THE SKY IS FALLING!

As to the terror alerts:

The people who are loudly decrying terror alerts and claiming that President Bush is the newest idiot dictator in the world would be just as hyper-critical of Bush if he DIDN'T have the terror alerts. Then we would be hearing, "What's wrong with that idiot, Bush? He should have instituted some sort of early-warning system for potential terrorist attacks/targets."

And, heaven forbid this is a NEW system and has yet to be perfected (ie mistakes are made and the idea needs more refinement which will evolve in time and with use).

Once again - THIS is a debate forum? I feel like I stumbled on a country club....

And...someone's been reading Ann Coulter again

Jennifer...you are not being fair and you know it. No one here has said anything about Hitler, bush being like a dictator etc. Some of us are pro-bush and some of us aren't. Sometimes the pro-bush camp is louder and sometimes the anti-bush camp is louder.

Most of us here are not privileged and didn't grow up with silver spoons in our mouths, so spare me the pity party. If you're that concerned about other countries with real problems, I assume you are out there pushing your legislators and president to do something about the Sudan...a place where real atrocities are actually occurring now...not over 20 years ago.

Have your opinion, but quit attacking people. I'm more than happy to debate a diff. point of view, but I'm not interested in having you talk down to me or in the disparaging comments.

btw...I liked the username Rapunzel better. If you want to take part....lets just clear the air once and for all in the call room and be done with it so that we can all move forward (sort of a group hug)...otherwise, expect to get a cool reception when you jog onto the scene and explode like this.

You asked if this was a debate forum...but you haven't contributed one bit of debate..you've just tossed in some angry diatribe. If you want to debate....then debate.
kris