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**SueC** · 08-14-2004, 01:39 PM

I never thought of it as a pro-choice, pro-life issue. I feel like a pregnant woman is sort of sacred ground and I think that is why crimes against a pregnant woman seem especially horrific. I agree that these people should be tried for two murders, since by taking the mother's life they are also taking the life of her unborn child.
That said, I am pro-choice. That might seem hypocritical but I am. It scares me to think what our country would be like if this right is taken away--imagine how many desperate young women would die because they end up seeking illegal (and unsafe) abortions.

**Meenah** · 08-14-2004, 02:06 PM

Sue I agree with you and couldn't have said it any better. I am pro choice, and I would not dream of telling another woman what she should or should not do. I believe that such choices must be heartwrenching to make, and every case is individual. Not until I walk in her shoes could I understand, and I hope I never (nor my daughters) ever have to make such choices, but I do want a safe,legal choice.

Great topic and thanks for coming out to play in the debate area!!!!
Luanne

**spotty_dog** · 08-14-2004, 02:28 PM

Hi Jen!

You're not coming out from left field at all; this is actually a very important issue for some people. In the circles I run in, it's understood that protecting a woman's right to choose abortion means opposing legislation that makes a fetus have all the rights that a person would have. So, even though I definitely see where it is coming from, I oppose Laci's Law.

In its place I'd happily accept legislation that makes a violent crime against a pregnant woman more harshly punishable than a similar crime against a non-pregnant person. Sue's got the right idea -- pregnancy should be a protected state; a pregnant woman should be "sacred ground".

I also agree with Luanne in that even if I wish that abortion weren't ever necessary, and that women could be better educated so some of the more unfortunate instances were avoided (as I plan to educate my future daughter/s), it's very important to me that the choice be there and that the actual procedure be legally protected so that it can be safe.

Just my opinion!

-Alison

**twinsmom** · 08-14-2004, 02:41 PM

Okay - you really can tell that I have too much time lately - being on the board twice in the same day

.

It is a very interesting thought about all of the girls/women who would die from seeking illegal abortions - but... what about the babies who die from any and all abortions, legal or illegal? Do they have a 'right' to choose life?

To me, it's not an issue of telling another woman what she should or should not do with her body... it's more an issue of choices and consequences. (DICLAIMER: in this I am NOT including the issue of Rape/incest, or mothers life-and-death issues- that to me is a whole different ball game...)

Many parenting theories are huge into teaching children natural consequences - i.e. "if I do A, then B will naturally follow" and as hard as it is, it would actually be a diservice for parents to take away the consequence, teaching the children the opposite of appropriate behaviors (I may be rambling a bit... bare with me...). But it's interesting how as adults, we spend a great majority of time (myself included on many occassions

) trying to get out of the consequences of our behavior. That is where I feel abortion lies.

This is also a stretch, but I think you can see the connection...
Our legal system is also set up on consequences... i.e. "If you steal, you will be put in jail" etc. I realize that having sex is not against the law, but there are natural consequences that follow this action - if you have sex, to me it should seem like you should be willing to take the possible consequences of your actions.

I'm not saying a person has to be bound to the child forever. There are many options available that don't end in the taking of a life. I know there are many people who aren't ready or able to raise a child - but there are literally tens of thousands of willing parents who would give anything to have a chance to adopt and raise a child.

Is killing an unwanted child really the answer?? On the other end of life, the legal system won't allow doctors to kill people who are asking to die. We even put a doctor in jail for following his patients whishes in ending their lives. That just seems wierd to me that we would not allow killing people who want to die, yet allow it of people who have no way of saying whether or not they want to die.

Just my thoughts for the day... Take care!!

Jen B.

Join Date: May 2024 · 08-14-2004, 04:38 PM

Good question! I've been thinking about this for hours since I read your post. Hopefully, we'll get a few more responses from the pro-life side of the group.

First, admission of bias: I am pro-choice.
Disclaimer: while I have been thinking of this for hours, that's not saying much.

Here's my objection to Laci's law -- I think it is a slipperly slope to outlawing abortion and that some (but not all) of the motivation for the law is political in that regard. That very obviously shows my pro-choice bias and I'm sure that the motivation I'm referring to makes perfect sense from a pro-life point of view. I like the idea of some sort of "aggravating circumstances" for crimes, not just murder, against women who are pregnant.

re: Laci Peterson....I think it is safe to say that whoever murdered her knew without a doubt that she was pregnant. Very pregnant. Absolutely there should be additional penalties for the crime, and IMO, a double murder charge as the fetus would have survived outside the womb.

re: Lori from Utah. I think this is a little trickier depending on who is guilty of murdering her. If it was her husband (sounds like a good possibility), he must have known she was pregnant. If it was someone else, they very easily would not have known. And 5 weeks along....I feel like I'm getting into hot water....isn't that far along. If it's 5 weeks from her last period, she had been pregnant for only 3 weeks. Did she have a positive test a dr.'s office? If she had a positive home test, was she still pregnant at the time of the murder (ie what if she had a miscarriage between the positive test and murder)? My gut feeling is in this case that the double murder charge doesn't seem justified.

**DCJenn** · 08-14-2004, 07:47 PM

I think they are two very different issues-

(and as I'm sure everyone knows- I'm totally pro-choice)

But, as Nellie pointed out, there was NO doubt that Peterson was pregnant. So, whoever (Scott) murdered her, knew full well that it was way beyond the pale- if there can be such a thing- murder is pretty much beyond the pale already)

The other girl, well, there's no actual confirmation that she was pregnant. She probably was, but I can't see how the prosecution can go for a double murder charge, unless the Crazy Man admits that along with everything else he has supposedly admitted to. and they will totally go for the insanity defense- the cynic in me wonders if the wandering around in the underwear was a pose, too.

Jenn

**SueC** · 08-14-2004, 08:28 PM

Jennifer, I think the underwear thing was contrived, too (not to get onto another topic, though I guess I am).
It had never occured to me that legislation to charge somebody for double murder in regards to a pregnant woman would affect the pro-choice issue, but if it does, I guess I'd have to go against charging somebody for double murder in that case.

**PrincessFiona** · 08-16-2004, 06:18 PM

twinsmom....

As a prolife liberal (yes, they exist!) I'd have to say that in both cases I think that the double murder case should stand.....In the case of Scott Peterson, he knew his wife was pregnant and (I assume) killed her and his unborn child knowingly and with malice. In the second case...he knew she was pregnant too and I think he killed with the intent to kill both.

As to the question of whether a woman who has an abortion is committing a murder...that is too hot for me to touch! I will say that I am so deeply offended by the idea of partial birth abortion that getting into a talk about it can actually make me cry if I can't get the other person to agree with me

So...I can't really add a good contribution to this thread in that regard!

kris[/u]

**fluffhead** · 08-16-2004, 06:57 PM

I completely agree that it's contradictory to say that abortion is legal, yet killing a pregnant woman is a double murder.
however -
if the supreme court could simply say "a fetus is a human being at week X of gestation," then until week X would be when an abortion could take place, and after week X, it would be double murder.
So I think that killing a very pregnant woman, who couldn't legally terminate, should be considered double.

**PrincessFiona** · 08-16-2004, 08:53 PM

OK, fluffhead...but at what point (why am I venturing into these infested waters????) would you say that the fetus becomes a 'life'? So it's a double murder if she is say above 24 weeks where the baby could potentially be viable and not murder before that? Where do we draw the line? Do we say it is a double murder at 6 weeks pregnant if she 'wanted' the baby, but it wasn't if she didn't? Do we mourn a miscarriage in early pregnancy if it was a baby that we wanted but discard an aborted baby of the same gestational age because 'the timing wasn't right'?

Can I 'abort' a 1 month old baby after it was born who still is very dependent on me for nourishment and care and is unable to form clear thoughts and take part in logical thought processes? It's a slippery slope if you ask me.

OK...now I'm really staying out of this.

kris

**fluffhead** · 08-18-2004, 07:42 AM

<angry post deleted> (advice - stay away from the computer when you're this sleep deprived)

**PrincessFiona** · 08-18-2004, 09:26 AM

I didn't think your post was angry.....I just was taking my time to respond...sorry!

**Flynn** · 08-18-2004, 02:29 PM

Wow -- I have been watching these two stories a little bit but hadn't made the connection with the whole "double murder" vs one murder issue.

I have to say that my gut agrees with the double murder charge with Laci -- especially if it was her husband because he knew without a doubt she was pregnant and if someone else killed her and didn't know, they are an idiot. So I am making the assumption that whoever killed Laci did it knowing she was pregnant.

Is that contradictory considering I define myself as "pro-choice?" Yes and No. Laci had no intention of having an abortion so to rob her of her life AND kill her fetus is in my book, two murders based on the mother's choice to have this baby. A weak argument I'll grant you, but that's what I think.

I can't really comment on the Utah case becuase I don't know that much about it....if you can't tell a woman is pregnant because she's not that far along...I don't really know how that should be handled.

I agree with Fluffhead although I doubt our country will ever clearly define when "life" starts.

I also think that "life" or "development" within utero is completely different from life outside mommy and you can't make comparisons.

Very interesting. Thanks twinsmom!!

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