Ethics Questions:

[PrincessFiona]

Consider these scenarios:

1. Your spouse falls into a depression and ends up on suicide watch at the hospital ( a terrible thing). Your spouse is removed from suicide watch by a psychiatrist who has seen him/her for 5 minutes and speaks poor english and then kills himself/herself. Depression is treatable, and had your spouse been more carefully evaluated/treated, this may have been avoided. Do you take action?

2. Your child is disemboweled by a swimming pool drain and you find out that this is a well-known problem and the company has been sued before. What do you do?

3. You are in labor and the fetal monitor is measuring distress. The baby is presenting as a breech delivery. You are given no consent forms to sign and are not made aware of the dangers of a breech delivery. You are not given the option of a c-section. After being stuck in the birth canal the baby is born with nerve damage and CP. At the time that you give birth, the commonly held belief is that CP is a birth injury. Your child will need round-the-clock care (and I'm assuming that you are going to demand that everything be done to save the life of your child). Would you take legal action?

Kris

[PrincessFiona]

I'll be honest...for all three scenarios I'd probably seek out a malpractice attorney.....

I still think there should be caps on pain/suffering though. Shouldn't people have the right to defend themselves against true negligence?

kris

[mommax3]

Of course people have the right to compensation when there is true negligence! But there is a climate out there that says that everyone is "owed" a perfect, healthy baby, and that just ain't the way it works, no matter how much we all wish it were otherwise.

So many "facts" can be misconstrued.....distress can mean many things, from a slight dip in heart tones that resolves later, to an absence of heart tones all together. A jury made up of laypersons is not likely to appreciate the differences between the two. What happens so often is that there is a bad outcome with no clear reason why. Someone decides to sue, and their lawyer pays an "expert" to determine how the doctor was at fault. So he picks apart every tracing on the strip, every note made by the doctor, and also uses the (at this point) prejudiced testimony of the plaintiffs. What then emerges is a very different picture of the events that unfolded. Like you said, Kris, hindsight IS twenty-twenty. Unfortunately, physicians don't have the benefit of that as they care for patients. They are using their training and their experience. In your post on the other thread that listed Edwards' cases, one of the babies was injured (supposedly) due to the cord being wrapped around his neck. My oldest had the cord around his neck *3* times, and was fine. Or maybe he isn't.....he does struggle with ADHD type issues at times.....should I sue? Reasoning like that is flawed, in my opinion, and trial lawyers like Edwards specialize in it.

Workers comp cases and company negligence are a whole different ballgame, in my opinion. Big companies who know their products/work environment are dangerous should be sued when something goes wrong. Heck, doctors who are CLEARLY negligent should be sued......but there need to be a lot more safeguards in place before these cases go to court.

Sally

[Rapunzel]

Re: Ethics Questions:

Consider these scenarios:

1. Your spouse falls into a depression and ends up on suicide watch at the hospital ( a terrible thing). Your spouse is removed from suicide watch by a psychiatrist who has seen him/her for 5 minutes and speaks poor english and then kills himself/herself. Depression is treatable, and had your spouse been more carefully evaluated/treated, this may have been avoided. Do you take action?

My own personal reaction is that I would immediately drive my husband to the next hospital upon his release from the first hospital if he didn't leave with medication and directions to a longer term psychiatric facility(to be entered immediately upon his release). I wouldn't even tell him - I'd just take him to the next hospital's ER - preferably the best hospital in the area and one without FMG's if that seems to be the problem (with the lack of mastery of the English language). So, for me this scenario is moot because it would indicate some negligence on my part. Of course, I tend to be VERY assertive regarding my family's medical care....

2. Your child is disemboweled by a swimming pool drain and you find out that this is a well-known problem and the company has been sued before. What do you do?

How can a child be disembowled by a swimming pool drain to begin with? I've been having trouble figuring this one out. I spend a lot of time in various swimming pools wherever we are (be it Dallas, San Antonio, D.C., or Boston) and I've never encountered a pool whose drain looks vicious enough to disembowel. I do have to say that I don't allow my children into a swimming pool unless I or my husband enter the pool with them. We do not allow them to play around with pool equipment or do "daredevil" type tricks. If they did and it resulted in their injury I would count myself as a negligent parent....

3. You are in labor and the fetal monitor is measuring distress. The baby is presenting as a breech delivery. You are given no consent forms to sign and are not made aware of the dangers of a breech delivery. You are not given the option of a c-section. After being stuck in the birth canal the baby is born with nerve damage and CP. At the time that you give birth, the commonly held belief is that CP is a birth injury. Your child will need round-the-clock care (and I'm assuming that you are going to demand that everything be done to save the life of your child). Would you take legal action?

Who the heck chose such a bad OB to begin with? Why didn't the patient check with his/her insurance company and their state board prior to accepting that physician as her caregiver (this is coming from a woman who is in the process of finding an OB for the fourth time in life). Was their a patient advocate such as a husband or parent present at the time the patient was in delivery? These factors contribute a great deal to the situation and I'd need to know more for a better opinion. On the surface it appears that this last scenario would be grounds for criminal negligence. If medical personnel are at fault for causing long-term or permanent damage to an infant or mother in their direct care then those medical personnel should be criminally investigated in my opinion. The malpractice suit should occur if the child is in need of medical care that the parents cannot afford (I DO believe their should be a cap on the nebulous "pain and suffering" award btw).

It's so easy to blame the person or organization with the deepest pocketbooks when you stand to make a profit. My opinion is that in many of these cases there are other, non-medical, persons up for blame.

Jennifer

[BonBon]

Re: Ethics Questions:

(this is coming from a woman who is in the process of finding an OB for the fourth time in life).

Do you have some news for us?

[mommax3]

I was wondering the same thing!!!!!

C'mon, spill it....

Sally

[Rapunzel]

Yes, I am.

[BonBon]

Congratulations!!!! When are you due? This is such exciting news!

Give us the details!

Rapunzel,

Many children have died over the years from pool drains. Even a parent's close attention to their children will most likely may not save them from defective pool drains. The suction power from pool drains is so great that the only way to free a person is usually to turn off the main power to the pool. Would you still count yourself as negligent if your child went swimming, got his or her hair or skin sucked into the pool drain and drowned because they could not be freed, and then later you discovered that the whole accident could have been avoided if the drain manufacturer had only installed a $50 sensor that automatically shut off the pump in the event it becomes clogged? Keep in mind the drain company was aware of the defect. I would undoubtedly hold the drain company liable.


Deadly Drains
For more information on drainsafety products, please see FOX5 News Links.

HUNDREDS OF YOUNG CHILDREN DIE EACH YEAR... BY DROWNING IN SWIMMING POOLS.
THAT'S SOMETHING YOU'VE PROBABLY HEARD BEFORE. WHAT YOU MAY "NOT" HAVE HEARD ABOUT IS THE DANGER LURKING IN MANY POOLS AND SPAS... THAT CAN KILL EVEN SKILLED SWIMMERS.
FOX FIVE'S WILL THOMAS REPORTS ON "DEADLY DRAINS." WILL?

KIDS ... AND EVEN ADULTS CAN GET TRAPPED IN DRAINS.
IN FACT, KIDS ARE EVEN MORE AT RISK IN PLACES YOU'D THINK THEY'D BE SAFEST -- THE SHALLOW WATER OF HOT TUBS OR EVEN KIDDIE POOLS.
BAD DRAIN COVERS LIKE THIS ONE -- PLACED ON POOL SIDES OR AT THE BOTTOM -- ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM.

A SUMMER PLUNGE IN THE BACKYARD.. HOTEL.. OR COMMUNITY SWIMMING POOL..

A GREAT ESCAPE FROM THE HEAT.

"What's the best part about swimming? Dunking my sister."

"I like to go under the water and do cool tricks."

"It's fun.. lots of fun."

"It gets them nice and tired so we all get good nights sleep."

"He wears himself out.. jumps in and out of the pools."

WHAT MANY PARENTS DON'T REALIZE.. IS THAT A POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS SITUATION EXISTS.. IN POOLS.. AND SPAS.. THAT COULD PREVENT YOUR CHILD, FROM COMING UP FOR AIR.

THE POWERFUL FORCES THAT CIRCULATE THE WATER ARE CAPABLE OF SUCKING YOUNG CHILDREN ONTO THE DRAIN IF THEY'RE PLAYING WITH IT.. EVEN IF THEY BRUSH UP AGAINST IT.

THESE DRAINS.. LOCATED ON THE BOTTOM.. OR SIDE OF A POOL OR SPA.

Kathy Belotto/MOTHER: "It just happened in a split second, he was stuck and he could not free himself."

KATHY BELOTTO'S SON.. NEARLY DIED WHEN HE DOVE TO THE BOTTOM OF A JACUZZI.. WHERE THE DRAIN SUCKED IN HIS SWIMSUIT DRAWSTRING.

HE COULDN'T BREAK FREE.. AND HIS OLDER BROTHER.. TRIED LIFTING HIM.. BUT HE WOULDN'T BUDGE.

Belotto: "I was very terrified and when I pulled him out of the pool he wasn't breathing and I gave him mouth to mouth and at first, he didn't come around."

JEREMY SUFFERED A BRUISED STOMACH.. BUT IT COULD HAVE BEEN MUCH WORSE.

THE VACUUM FORCE OF A DRAIN.. CAN DISEMBOWEL A CHILD.. PULLING THEIR INTESTINES OUT .. IN JUST A MATTER OF SECONDS.

Will Thomas/Fox 5 News:
"We're going to use this teddy bear to show you how it happens. A child playing near the flat grate over the intake valves of the pool or jacuzzi can be sucked in by the powerful vacuum pumps like this. A small child could never release themselves from that."

THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED TO A FOUR-YEAR OLD MARYLAND BOY.. WADING IN A KIDDIE POOL, AT A GLEN BURNIE MOTEL.

HE WAS NEARLY KILLED WHEN HIS INTESTINES WERE SUCKED FROM HIS BODY.. BY A DEFECTIVE DRAIN.

THE FAMILY.. AWARDED AN OUT-OF-COURT SETTLEMENT.. OF 20-MILLION DOLLARS.. THE CHILD WILL NEED A LIFETIME OF MEDICAL CARE.

THE U.S. CONSUMER PRODUCT SAFETY COMMISSION.. WHICH TRACKS DRAIN-ENTRAPMENT ACCIDENTS... REPORTS TEN DEATHS IN THE LAST DECADE.

AND KEN GILES FROM THE CPSC.. SAYS THERE ARE LIKELY MANY MORE UNDOCUMENTED DEATHS.. BECAUSE THE REPORTING IS VOLUNTARY.

Ken Giles: Consumer Product Safety Commission "If you cover that drainwith yourbody it creates a vacuum that holds your body down and you're not goingto be able to free yourself.. and even a family member isn't going to be able to pull you off that drain."

JEREMY'S MOM MANAGED TO PULL HIM FREE.. ONLY 'AFTER' SHE SHUT OFF THE PUMP.

THAT STOPPED THE SUCTION.. WHICH WAS HOLDING HIM DOWN.

Belotto "Fortunately I had the sense to go shut off the pool pump and when it did it freed him."

LIFEGUARDS ARE TRAINED TO KEEP THEIR COOL.

BUT FEW.. IF ANY.. ARE PREPARED FOR AN ENTRAPMENT RESCUE.

THESE HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS.. WORK AS PART-TIME LIFEGUARDS.

Lifeguards:

"When you're little you always joke about going down and getting stuck on the grate I never thought it would really happen."

"I never really thought it could happen. I've heard a lot about it though.. and it kind of freaked me out."

THE AMERICAN RED CROSS.. CERTIFIES MORE THAN THREE-THOUSAND LIFEGUARDS IN THE WASHINGTON REGION EVERY YEAR.

WILL: "Say a lifeguard has a victim that's stuck to a drain, are they taught how to get them off the drain?"

Harold Houston/American Red Cross " No. they're not taught how to get them off the drain, we just try to make sure that we prevent it from happening ... They recognize when a patron is playing around a drain.. and they won't allow it."

Giles: "The Consumer Product Safety Commission worked with the industry to create standards."

THESE STANDARDS FOR POOLS AND HOT TUBS ALIKE.. INCLUDE:

1) DUAL DRAINS.. SO EVEN IF ONE DRAIN IS BLOCKED BY A CHILD'S BODY.. THE OTHER DRAIN CONTINUES TO FUNCTION.. PREVENTING A VACUUM EFFECT.

2) NEARBY CUT-OFF SWITCHES.. WITHIN FIVE TO TEN FEET FROM THE WATER.. A SWITCH THAT SHUTS DOWN THE PUMP SYSTEM.

3) AND RAISED DRAIN COVERS.. SO YOU CAN'T CREATE A VACUUM BY SITTING ON IT.

Giles: "That still leaves all the old pools and hot tubs in people's homes that need to be fixed."

IT'S AN EASY AND INEXPENSIVE 'FIX'.

50 BUCKS WILL BUY YOU ONE OF THESE RAISED DRAIN COVERS.

Giles: "It's nearly impossible for someone to completely cover this with their body."

AND FOR THE SIDE OF YOUR HOT-TUB.. THIS $50 COVER.. THAT CAN SAVE LIVES TOO.

GILES: "There were drowning deaths because kids got hair tangled.. and wrapped around and around the old drains."
WILL: "Had they had this.. wouldn't have happened?"
GILES: "Right, they would have been able to simply raise their heads."

A POTENTIALLY LIFE-THREATENING RISK.. THAT DOESN'T HAVE TO CATCH YOU OFF GUARD.

A SIMPLE DRAIN COVER 'CHANGE' AT HOME.. AN EDUCATED QUESTION AT A COMMUNITY POOL.


A SUMMER SPLASH.. DOESN'T HAVE TO END IN TRAGEDY.

REMEMBER DRAIN COVERS ARE JUST "ONE" PRECAUTION ... YOU SHOULD ALSO KNOW WHERE THE SHUT OFF SWITCH IS NEAR ANY POOL OR SPA YOU OR YOUR FAMILY ARE IN.



Main Drain Suction Hazards

In recent years, accidents involving swimming pool and spa main drain suction have pointed to the need of a means of protecting swimmer safety. Suction pressures in main drains caused by recirculating or hydrotherapy jet pumps can be so strong as to disembowel or entrap the swimmer. In an effort to minimize this hazard, the Ohio Swimming Pool Rules now require that certain safety measures be put into place in shallow bodies of water where contact with the main drain is more likely. This applies to all spas, all wading pools, and any special use pool 36 inches or shallower in depth.

[mommax3]

Congratulations!!! Give us the details! How are you feeling?

Sally

[Rapunzel]

Where do you come up with these icons? They are SO cool! I'm so not in the loop with internet things....

I'm due with #5 in June this next year. I'm only about six weeks along at this point - but it's just long enough to land me in the middle of serious morning (or, in my case, evening) sickness. Imagine PMS and the flu for about six weeks straight - that's my life until Christmas. :> My husband will survive, though. He's done it before! Besides, telling him he's partly to blame for my situation "helps" him along.

No twin jokes for now - if I have twins I will be, officially, at my limit of parental abilities (it's just not funny for me - which is sad because I see the humor in jokes like that - I'm just too close to it I guess ).

Edit: The sad thing is that I had just bought a winter coat I LOVE. At a size 4 with princess seams (VERY close-fitting) there is NO WAY I'll be wearing it this winter. I really hate the "in-between" time of pregnancy (ie too big and bloated for your "normal" clothes and not quite big enough for maternity clothes - and I really feel like a slob in my husband's scrubs).

Jennifer

[Rapunzel]

Edwife, thank you for that information. That's something I really wasn't aware of. I had been taught to avoid pool drains when I learned to swim but no one ever told me why....

The question remains, however, why would you sue a company as Kris suggested if the owner of the pool was negligent in not placing a cover on the drain - an especially easy and cheap fix according to the article provided. It seems that if a company was sued it would be the one in charge of the home/business owner's insurance policy or, possibly, the installer of the pool (for not providing the drain cover to begin with).

I do think that if the parent knows the information that I now know there would be parental negligence involved if the child was allowed to play around the pool drain and/or the parent did not inform the children of the danger (which I'll be talking to my children about before our next trip to a pool - thank you for that information, Edwife). If a parent knows of the danger of a pool drain and continues to allow their children to play in that pool then that parent is subjecting their children to the possible consequences. If a parent is ignorant of the danger (such as I was until a bit ago), then I think the responsibility falls to the owner of the pool.

We'll be checking for drain covers from now on. If I don't see them on pools we frequent I WILL be talking to the pool owners and informing them of the possible litigious consequences of not putting a cheap cover to their seeming deathtrap. If I didn't do that I would feel to blame if a child in the future, with a parent ignorant of the drain danger, was harmed in the same pool (when I could've spoken up and possibly prevented the problem).

Jennifer

Rapunzel, first I wanted to congratulate you on your great news! I wish you a healthy pregnancy.

Whether it is the pool owner's responsibility or the drain manufacturer's is, I believe, dependent upon when the drain was manufactured (before or after they knew of the potential risk) and on whether or not the drain manufacturer issued a recall. As far as I know, these deadly drains are still being manufactured. In fact, there is one installed on my jacuzzi bath tub...and this is a brand spankin' new tub...just installed 5 months ago!

By the way, I only became aware of the drain problem after hearing about two lawsuits filed on behalf of a little boy who was disemboweled in a pool and a teenage girl who drowned in front of her helpless family in their backyard spa.

I do think that the US has become lawsuit crazy and legislation needs to be passed to prevent bogus lawsuits. I don't believe limiting non-economic damages is the way to go (Bush's plan). All this does is limit patients' rights and fatten the pockets of greedy insurance companies because, not only is there then a limit on how much an insurance company has to pay out, there is NO limit on how much they can raise malpractice premiums. It seems to me like Bush's plan would only benefit insurance companies and would do nothing to protect doctors.

Despite the fact California put a cap on non-economic damage awards to keep malpractice insurance premiums from rising almost 30 years ago (1975), medical malpractice insurance rates rose 700% within 10 years (1975-1985). [The same thing is happening in Texas now...within 6 months of capping non-economic damage awards, insurance companies there raised premiums 19%.] In 1990, Californians passed Prop 103, a measure to cap insurance rates in California, and as a result premiums leveled off. California is one of the few states not in a malpractice insurance crisis. Now, doesn't it seem like California is doing something right here? Why can't our government figure this out?

Hmmm, I think it has to do with the insurance industry being one of the top financial contributors to Bush's campaign. In fact, the insurance industry has contributed $3,016,462 to Bush for the 2004 Election and only $695,059 to Kerry.

Erica

[SueC]

Those are interesting tidbits of information Erika--I hadn't realized the countries that limited malpractice lawsuits were still increasing malpractice rates.

[Meenah]

Congrats on the pregnancy!!!!! Hope you are feeling better soon.
Luanne