How can we reform Public Schools?

[PrincessFiona]

Maybe we should move away from the republicans/democrats issues and focus on some less controversial issues.

There are so many problems today in the public schools: class sizes too large, main-streamed special needs children not having paraprofessionals assigned to them, low teacher salaries, lack of money for workbooks and supplies....What are your ideas for improving things in the schools?

kris

[Rapunzel]

Ah, heck, Kris, you posted a problem to which I am practicing a more "radical" solution (ie homeschooling). I don't think I really have anything constructive to say on the subject beyond that!

But, I'm definitely interested in reading responses to your question.

Jennifer

I tend to be shy of discussion because I don't feel eloquent and have a hard time organizing my thoughts sometimes, so bear with me.

I don't know how much of an idea it is but what I would like to see in a school district, so I am not sure if I am really "fixing" anything.

Things I would like to see-
-back to the "basics," enough of this "oh let's feel good about ourselves before do math, science or writing,": I want my children to be taught some of the same things I was taught growing up, which I KNOW for a fact in some school districts is NOT being done- sentence structure, diagrams- object, direct object, verb, etc.; I could go on, but I don't want to.; mastering the basics before moving on to the more advance material, taking the pressure off of students to take the "harder" classes before they are ready for it.
-Quality teachers; blah, blah, blah

So growing up, I attended an awesome school district- Department of Defense Schools. To this day I love it, and felt I strived better in this environment than when my father retired and was shifted to a public school in Colorado. Granted each child is different, and I don't represent every child. My younger brother who has a slew of diagnosed learning disabilities- ADHD and auditory dyslexia are a couple that I remember, thrived and his needs were met and addressed. I will talk about these two different situations.

Elementary school (5th and 6th), Middle school (7th, 8th) and high school- 1. The school was set up that at the beginning of each year, sometime during the first week, I think, of classes, a placement test was administered to determine your placement for mathematics, science, social studies/history, and language arts. You were then grouped with others who performed similar to you. There was room for those who don't "test" well, and if you got into a class that was either too hard or too easy for you then you could be placed in a different class; but it was rare that someone was moved. This continued all into high school where you had remedial, college prep, advanced college prep, and gifted, but they weren't titled necessarily this way, but in "Levels". No "placement" was made for homeroom, PE, health, or art (there was an advanced art class in HS but you had to be an upperclassman to take it).
2. Communication between the staff was key- the teachers took time to speak with students individually about their progress. I really found this helpful, as did my parents. My parents were also very involved in my education. Anyway, compared to being in a public school where I found that maybe one or two of my teacher's really gave a hoot about my progress, ALL of my teachers in DOD cared. I remember in Middle school (7th and 8th) the school was divided into "wings" and each wing had a mascot. I digress, but the teachers assigned to that wing- science, math, social studies, language arts, the teachers would meet together each week and discuss the students and how to better meet their needs. I remember I got into trouble with a math test, and I had my other 3 teachers besides the math teacher asking if there was anything they could do.
3. We were taught the basics, and had to master the basics before we moved on. My dad thought it was incredible that as a high school senior in a public school I was taking a college Calculus class- I got the "back in my day" story. In hindsight, I wished I had not felt so "pressured" by the school counselor to take the AP classes offered. We did have standardized testing, if memory serves me correctly, but I never once felt like I was being forced to learn things for a "test." Because everything we were learning was stuff we should know anyway. Now in public school I remember quite well during two weeks of every fall having to "study" for the standardized testing. Our teachers would actually stop their study plans and switch to doing plans for preparation for the standardized testing, and would even forewarn us "Ok the CSAP is coming up, so we will be stopping this reading or this material and focusing on the CSAP for 2 weeks."

4. Learning disabilities- my brother (Rob) was diagnosed in Kindergarten, while my parents were stationed in Hawaii, and had the priviledge to attend a school tailored for gifted children and learning disabilities. Anyway, we moved to the East coast where the DOD school we attended had measures in place to address special needs- behavioral, learning disabilities, etc. The teacher Rob was assigned to had training in special education, and no Rob was not put in a special education classroom situation, but put with "normal" children. The teacher drew up plans and met with my parents on a regular basis to ensure that Rob's needs were being met. This was true for him all through elementary school, and if my father had not retired then plans would have been drawn up for Middle school. Now my father retired from the military when Rob was getting ready to enter into Junior/Middle school. The CO public school he attended, the teachers could not have cared less if Rob didn't exist, and it showed (if you want to know specific examples you can PM me). By the time he entered high school, learning issues that had not been a problem for years, were now HUGE problems due to the lack of attention. My parents tried numerous times to get plans and sessions implemented with his teachers, spoke with prinicipals, and nothing was done, it was not until they were able to finally speak with the superintendant that was something was done. He was moved to another school in the district, and things were set up very similar to elementary school- plans, meetings, he even had a tutor, and a special needs educator. However, it was too late, Rob was lost, and dropped out of high school out of frustration. I am proud to say that he did get his GED.

I don't know how we can find quality caring teachers. I don't even know where to find the money to support more teachers, and smaller classrooms.

With all of this said, we will probably be homeschooling our children or send them to a charter school.

Thanks for listening,

Crystal

[SueC]

I think Sally had a good point on another thread about paying teachers more, but I'm wondering where that money ought to come from. Our schools are non-accredited here, and I'm pretty sure they have trouble attracting good teachers. One of the inhibiting factors at least in our school system seems to be politics--the school board is constantly firing the superintendent, they bring somebody new in that is supposed to reform the schools in 1 year and when that isn't done they fire them. The board is always at odds with the teachers and superintendents and the end result seems to be that not enough attention is being given to how to solve the problem of getting test scores up so they can get accredited. I might be wrong, but I think if you aren't accredited, you aren't eligible for certain state funding, which I assume would perpetuate the problem. It's a mess here!!!
Maybe somebody should do a study (which I guess the gov't would have to fund--using more tax dollars!) that identified school systems that are working and use them as a model for the rest of the districts.

[spotty_dog]

Crystal, you make me nostalgic for my high school.

It was an American-accredited school in South America that served grades K4 through 12. Levels I, II, and AP were offered and class placement was based on aptitude. Classes were small and teachers engaged. I attended for grades 9 through 11, and felt I got a great education. Heck, my physics teacher believed in me to the point that he offered to board me for a year so I could complete my education while my family returned to the States!

It was a school for the children of the affluent and was intended as more of a college-prep, particularly for the students interested in American universities but many went to in-country university and did well. I wonder if that assumption that students *would* be going to pursue higher education gave strength to their commitment to academics?

[mommax3]

This is so interesting to read.

DOD schools have awesome pay and getting a job in one is very hard to do because they are very competitive.....moreso now because most of the stateside DOD schools are closed.

So, obviously, according to Crystal's example, salary does make quite a difference.

I think, too, that the smaller the school system, the better......the bigger one gets, the more bureaucracy and the more administrative salaries you have to pay.

Something else to keep in mind.....special ed programs cost a TON to run, and special ed students tend to attend inner-city school systems that are struggling already. The state regulations that are there to protect those kids require that the teacher be involved in record-keeping and administrative duties almost exclusively, in order to prove that the regulations are being met......but that leaves aides doing the actual teaching.....some of whom are excellent and willing to work for less than $10 and hour, but mostly, you get what you pay for.

I really, really think that on a macro level, the system is broken and just limping along, although I know there are excellent public schools all over the place. Involved parents make a huge difference, both in the quality of kids that end up in the school, and in the way the school functions. Schools can't change, in 7 hours a day, what goes on in the rest of a student's life, although they are increasingly being charged with that responsibility.

Charter schools are a great idea, as long as they are producing results. I am all for the use of vouchers, too. Schools need to be given more free rein at the site level (not the system level or the state level) to make themselves competitive. That is how the rest of the world works, after all.

Sally

[DCJenn]

My answers, off the top of my head, not having kids, and having left the school system exactly 20 years ago....

1) Definitely go back to basics. When I actually managed people and had to read their shoddy reports, I would make the corrections and insist that they rewrite them. These were legal documents and they HAD to be correct. (It got to the point that I ended up writing everything for everybody above me, too)

2) Stop teaching to standardized tests. There are reams of studies out there that indicate that for the majority of students, standardized test are only testing the test-taking ability of the student. We all know that the SAT and GREs have been proven to NOT indicate how well someone will do in college. The one standardized test that seems to indicate success in post graduate studies is the MAT.

3) Stop social promotion of kids that can't read or write.

4) Realize that maybe 1500 students per class is not the best way to educate.

5) Expect teachers to maintain their certification, but pay them them accordingly. When I was getting my SW license, my company paid me at one level. When I passed the test, I got a raise. (A pretty good incentive to pass the test)

6) No school should be forced to choose between arts and athletics. They are both valuable to the students individually and as a whole. Accept that there are certain things that are required.

7) Get rid of the fluffy stuff- I took a whole bunch of fluffy stuff my senior year. I think I had four sociology classes one semester.

8) Community Service requirements should be required but 5+ hours of homework a night is just stupid. (as we all know, exhaustion does not make anyone a better student or a better person.)

9) Everyone should be required as a part of the basic math requirements to learn 1) how to balance a checkbook, how to figure out basic interest and compound interest, and the dangers of a credit card lifestyle. (if only we could get the politicians to understand this, as well)

Essentially, we need to raise the bar- and compensate our teachers accordingly.

Jenn

[Amiens]

Everyone has made great points. I didn't realize that DOD teachers were paid better than public school teachers. So I would have to agree that better pay may equal better quality. Matt and I were discussing this issue last night- I posed the same question to him. He said he would hold teachers and the school board accountable, pay teachers better, school board officials could take a pay cut, and teachers don't get raises if they aren't doing a good job. He would like to see parents (urban, rural, and suburban) be more involved in their children's education. Instead of complaining, doing something about it, or better yet just being there period in their child's life. It's sad but some schools are the only stability offered to a child in their life. (Don't know where I am going with this so I will end it- thinking I am getting off topic).

It's hard to think that such a noble profession is one of the lowest paying jobs in the US. Teachers are the very people that inspire us to go onto be lawyers, doctors, nurses, engineers, social workers, without teachers one could not get to where they want to be.

I agree when it comes arts vs. athletics. It's already been proven that children that participate in / exposure to music do better in math than children who don't. Matt is a big proponent of music education- played trumpet in various bands all through high school, and has his BS in Mathematics and Statistics. He jokes if medicine ever goes to pot, he will become a high school math teacher- loves teaching math second to being in the OR.

I thought about maybe some ways to find the money. I know in Seattle PS, they keep building schools, when they aren't even being used to their full potential. A neighbor of our's suggested selling or renting the unused schools out to help pay for increased costs, but I haven't figured out in my mind if this is a viable option.

About the "Realize that maybe 1500 students per class is not the best way to educate." The DOD HS vs. public HS- there were 300 kids in the DOD school (~90 in my entire freshman class) compared to 375 in my senior class at the public HS with a total of ~2700 students in the HS. Talk about going from being a fish in a little pond, to a diatom (or living speck) in a vast ocean. [the science nerd is coming out in me]

Crystal

[DCJenn]

There's a very good reason why the Clinton's sent Chelsea to a private school here in DC. The school system is broken. In fact it is the condition of the school that is the number one reason why people with kids leave the city.

However, we have a new superintendent and Man oh Man is he shaking things up- he fired three principals shortly after he arrived- because their school wasn't ready and the students couldn't start on Day One and these dipwads didn't bother to mention it until the day before school was to start. He's also starting to hold the school accountable in a bunch of other ways and is in the process of reviewing the non-performing charter schools. (In DC, apparently anyone who thought they were a teacher was allowed to open a charter school, and now that the kids can't pass any of the tests to graduate, he's re-evaluating them.)

I struggle with the "what do we do when Stoli is school age" track in my head. Hopefully there will be significant changes in DCPS by the time we need to worry about it because I truly believe that in this area at least, there are so many other benefits to living in the city that I really would hate to leave.

Jenn