Solving the education crisis in America

[PrincessFiona]

I was really discouraged today to read the triannial program for international student assessment ranked the US 24th out of 29 countries in Math We actually fell behind Poland and Hungary in mat proficiency. We are in the middle in reading skills.

How do we pull back ahead?

kris

[BonBon]

I don't know. I guess as parents we need to take responsibility for our children's education. I don't know if the material is being dumbed down or if kids just aren't applying themselves. Did the article give any insight?

I'd be interested to know how much distance there is between the places in the rankings. Is the difference between 1st and 10th a hair? Or is it the difference between knowing calculus versus only fractions?

[PrincessFiona]

I understand the difference were significant. For example the PISA (Program for International Student Assessment) results for 2000 had americans in the 'middle of the pack' in reading skills. We ranked 18th in math and 14th in science out of 30 countries. I don't believe this was an issue of 'splitting hairs'

Here is the PISA website:

http://www.pisa.oecd.org/pages/0,2987,e ... _1,00.html

[mommax3]

I read that for the 2003 test, 5456 students from our country participated....I would like to know more about the sample size and how they obtained it, just for curiosity's sake.

You will not hear me argue that our schools are in great shape. Until we loosen the grip of the NEA on education in this country and get rid of the notion that a teacher is safe from being fired after six years, (i.e. tenured) education reform will not happen.

Teachers need to be treated, both positively (SALARIES!) and negatively (no unions) like the professionals they are. If their classes don't show progress, they shouldn't be able to keep teaching. I don't mean that their kids should attain an arbitrary benchmark......I mean there should be measurable growth and improvement from the beginning of the year to the end of the year, each year, for each child. The school day should be longer, and the school year should be longer. Education should not be viewed as an "easy" major or career.

Sally

I guess I don't really have an answer for your question. What bothers me about these sorts of things is that there is typically very little effort to understand how the scores are derived, how they are compared, etc. And I don't mean effort on your part -- I mean in what is reported. I know that press releases can't delve into the details of a study. But before people get too excited about the scores, it would be nice to hear some analysis of it.

For example, how do the test questions mesh with timing of subject teaching -- for all of the countries? Maybe many US schools teach a subject a year after other countries (ex: switch biology with physics or something) which skew the results against the US. Or, maybe the reverse is true and the US results look better than they might if the test was administered at age 17.

Anyway, I don't doubt that the US is at the middle or bottom, this just triggered my frustration with sound bite intrepretations of lots of data. (sorry. I'll go be crabby somewhere else). I'm sure that if I read the whole report I might better understand it.

[PrincessFiona]

Well, I understand that the sample sizes were pretty much the same across the board...

If it was just the Triannual Program where we scored badly or just the Pisa, I'd kind of blow it off.

I agree with Sally on one thing....I think qualified teachers need to be paid more. If I were in charge (which I'm not ) I would also insist that all highschool teachers have a MA in the subject that they are teaching and not in eduation. I would also have a longer school year, start foreign languages earlier and push for starting science class earlier.

oopss..doorbell.

[Rapunzel]

Interestingly, perhaps the most popular math program for U.S. homeschoolers is Singapore math (yes, developed and used in Singapore government schools for years - check out Singapore's math stats!). There's also a program used in Britain that some of my friends use with their kids (it's something like mequon math or something - I can't remember correctly). Otherwise I don't know a single homeschooler that uses a math curriculum used by public schools in the U.S. The other most popular program among homeschoolers seems to be Saxon math.

I know a bit about Singapore math (very different progression from U.S. math programs) but nothing really about Saxon.

Anyway, if the Singapore curriculum results are any indication it may be that the progression of mathematical learning used in our nation is not the most optimum for learning math quickly and completely.

Jennifer

[HeartRN]

I know not what to say....such a multifold issue. My dad (long time poli sci professor) is always *itching about how students are "going to pot" as far as just the BASICS are concerned. He has shown me some of his blue book exams, and I have to tell you, they are HORRENDOUS. I have no idea how people wind up in college when they are unable to form an appropriate sentence! This simply should NOT happen! Of course, Dad also says "If you really want to see why America is having serious issues these days, just try to place an order at McDonald's!" I can't say I really disagree.

Although I'm not a teacher, I know several quite well (including my SIL). I feel rather strongly about teachers being tested on a regular basis. The was a huge uproar in VA about this....many teachers whining that it was unfair because they are "not good test takers". If you aren't a "good test taker", how did you become qualified to teach my child in the first place?

I do agree that teachers who do outstanding work could be paid more....right along with nurses who believe their jobs aren't just jobs, but careers that can potentiate major change in other people's lives.

[mommax3]

I agree with you about the testing, Marla. I remember when I was in college Education majors had to take something called the PPST (Pre-Professional Skills Test) in order to be able to student teach and graduate with the degree. I have no idea if they still give this test. Anyway, I was shocked by how many of my classmates were stressed about the test, especially after I took it! It was WAY easier than the SAT. Now, I am (and always have been) a good test taker. I read really fast and always have time to check back over my answers. I know that some people just aren't good test takers, and I also know that no test can measure teaching ability, which I sometimes think is almost innate. But it was appalling to me to think that some of the scores I heard bandied about in my education classes belonged to people who might someday teach my child.

Again, I think it comes back to the salaries and the perception of teaching as a career. If you raise the standards for teachers, AS WELL AS the salaries, more of the best and brightest will become interested in it as a career.

BTW.....guess what the NEA thinks of teacher testing

Sally

[PrincessFiona]

Sally,

Why is the NEA so against teacher testing?

I don't want to make this a cross-post with Kelly's Montessori post...but I have to throw this in here. At the Montessori program where Alex goes there are ages 3-5 and there are 25 children currently there with one teacher and one assistant teacher. At 5 1/2, Alex is farther behind academically than mosty of the *gulp* 3 year olds who are READING...and subtracting and adding...all as a game...

I nearly had a heart attack when I realized that the other Kindergarteners are doing DIVISION.

Why can Montessori do it but the public schools can't? I don't think that Montessori teachers earn that much more than public school teachers. The costs are much lower overall to run this kind of a program...WHY are our schools so freaking crappy???????

kris

[houseelf]

I have read this thread with much interest. THis is a HUGE problem facing our country. Sadly, the individual solution in this household is to "buy" our way around it via tuition.

And yet we still believe that there is equal opportunity in this country.

Kelly

[Flynn]

Wow. So many layers here and so little time.

As a former public high school teacher and then a private high school teacher I have many theories albeit untested, as to why education in this country is the way it is.

From my limited experience, the private school where I taught had smaller classes, more expectations (grades and behavior), more time in the classroom, less class missed for sports or other "clubs," and paid me more -- about 4,000$ more a year.

It was a MUCH nicer place to work because kids knew that if they went over a line they were gone. More importantly, school was important in the private school to the majority of students. I averaged about 7 absences PER CLASS (I did not teach in a "high risk" school) in the public schools where I taught and less than 4 absences PER WEEK in the private school. What a concept, you learn more when you are actually IN CLASS.

Public schools have their hands tied in so many areas yet in areas where they can make a difference, many fall horribly short. Sigh.

Many parents just want to see As and Bs...if their kid works hard for a C but is learning boatloads more than in "slacker" classes where an A is a given, they are up in arms due to difficult college entry requirements and ideas about their child.

Layers upon layers.

I have no answers but higher expectations at home and in school without the fear of lawsuits would be a nice start.

After reading my rant about intpretation of studies... ....

I wanted to throw in that I am concerned about school quality, especially as we face this next year with kindergarten. We can't really afford private school next year, but b/c DH will be done in the next few years, I can justify finding ways to cover it. But, we are unique in that opportunity and not everyone has that option.

I talked to my cousin about this last night. She is finishing teaching a Western Civ class at a "regional" college. She attended top schools for undergrad and graduate school and was surprised by:
1) Students complete lack of interest in the topic and dismay at having to take the class (for general graduation requirements); and
2) Students aversion to working hard or at all.

Of course, this wasn't all students. And you can't expect Western Civ to be everyone's absolute favorite topic. But still....she was really disheartened by the students' attitudes.

So, sort of off topic. But I think a general expectation to continue on to college without some hard work before and then during is part of a broader problem with education.

Kris, I've heard some really interesting discussions about Montessori and math. Which I will surely botch. BUT I'll try, a friend who excels at all things mathematical was explaining to me how Montessori math lays foundations for calculus. Now, I don't think they are trying to teach calculus by any means but she observed that her 5 yo son's montessori math helped her better understand a element of calculus that she has understood but not fully "owned". If that makes any sense.

[Rapunzel]

I think that to really examine this topic completely I would have to know what the differences were in how the subject of math was taught in the "average" government-funded schoolroom in the various nations whose students outperformed U.S. students on the math exam. Thinking back to my time as a public school student and now perusing numerous curriculum catalogs every year I really think a lot of the problem is the basic approach to math itself. So many curriculums (marketed to U.S. schools) out there seem to be absolute trash. I don't know quite as much about the math curriculum options as I do about the reading programs - but from what I do know there seems to be a big difference in how mathematics are taught from nation to nation. For example, students using the Singapore curriculum actually begin basic algebra concepts years earlier than their counterparts using a traditional U.S. public school curriculum.

Is there a way to find out the basic curriculums used by public schools in the nations that out-performed the U.S. in math?

Jennifer