What do you think of this article?

[mommax3]

Well, I will take a cheap feel anywhere I can get one.

As for the rest.....tax incentives, re-evaluation of gov't spending.....I think I am probably with you, but I am feeling worse by the second and am coming to the realization that a) I am coming down with the flu as I recover from Strep or b) the Z-Pack is seriously kicking my ass.

As I currently have no real village, church-related or otherwise,
I have called my husband and begged him to come home as soon as possible and have enlisted my oldest (who I just picked up from school) to take care of the youngest (who has chosen today to be a virtual poop machine) so that my middle guy and I can go sack out on my bed.

Sally

[houseelf]

Get better soon. I hate being sick.

Oh, and don't think that a few friendly volleys in the debate forum will keep me from loving you. Kind of gives a new feel to that group hug icon, no?



Kelly

[SueC]

Too late to chime in?
I found the article interesting and identified with parts of it. I don't really buy into the idea that the pressure is coming from society to be the perfect parents. At least in my case, it is internally motivated. Not to say I spend hours trying to stimulate my kids and drive them all over town to attend classes because I don't. I do, however, spend too much time beating myself up over the choice I have made and worrying about the damage I may be doing to my kids.
This is a pessimistic attitude, but I think women get kind of screwed no matter what choice they make in regards to work. I've got friends that work because they want to and becuase they have to. They are working part-time, flex-time, full-time or from home. The full-time ones are constantly stressed about not spending enough time with their kids, while the part-time working moms get denied promotions and healthcare and their time off is not respected by their places of employment so they end up working form home or on days off to meet deadlines. Work at home moms get screwed because somehow caring for the children and doing their job are supposed to magically happen at the same time. OK, I'll shut up now, I'm just in a bad mood because it's been a LOOOOONG day, dh still isn't home, and I have a TON of work to do still.

[houseelf]

Thanks for chiming in Sue! I don't think that this the views shared on this thread are particularly divergent and yet I fear people are shying away from controversy. (Either that or you all are afraid to feel my love).

This is one of those debates in which the opposite sides really have a hell of a lot more in common than they think. Seriously, I agree that ideally at least one parent should serve as the primary caretaker to very young children as much as possible. I agree that the caretaker job is undervalued and much harder work than a paying job. Further, I think that we all want the best for our children. Now how we get there is a completely different beast. Personally, I'm opting for the moving to Montana to form a commune in which all parents are on the same page.

Seriously though, in my case, the political has become personal. I feel so passionately about accessibility to early childhood education and quality care that I submitted my resume to the Children's Defense organization. Please allow my moment of self importance as I imagine myself dressed in a crisp Ann Taylor suit suit single handedly leading children to a safe place where the adults are treated with respect and as professionals, like some sort of fashionable modern day pied piper. In reality, my resume will probably be met with hilarity by the recipients. (University of Kentucky, no law review! Ha, ha, ha, ha!). If Karma fulfills its promise, I will probably not receive a response from this gesture because during busy times in the past, I have not responded to would-be job seekers in my office.

In other words, I don't know when or how, but I will shake the comfort of my apathy and do something about this issue. I'm pissed off that we can subsidize everything from corporate farming to off shore oil wells, but American families, now hold your horses, that is just too extravagent!

Perhaps one day when I'm a wealthy dawkter's wife ( More champagne! More Caviar!), I will be able to do something. Until then, I will remain a frustrated cog in the wheel.

Kelly

[PrincessFiona]

I'm pissed off that we can subsidize everything from corporate farming to off shore oil wells, but American families, now hold your horses, that is just too extravagent!

Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou := We americans are expected to 'pull ourselves up by our bootstraps' and suck it up. We are supposed to blame ourselves for our failures and 'pay the consequences'. God forbid that the Airlines be forced to pay the consequences of extravagant ceo and pilot salaries and their failure to save a penny. (unrelated to 9/11 and the air travel issues...the airlines are pisspoor managers of money). Corporations create those $5/hour jobs that keep our poor people poor....so we should be grateful for them. We should give them all sorts of coporate wellfare and tax breaks. Did you know that 70% of US corporations do NOT pay taxes. I think I'm going to see if I can declare the Math familiy a coroporation and then create an offshore branch in the Cayman's so that I don't have to worry about paying those pesky little taxes anymore.

Imagine what we could do for our children if corporate giants like Halliburton had to pony up and pay THEIR fair share...or even a portion of their fair share.

....and (since I'm on a rampage) may I just add that I also hate the "lets provide early childhood education for those poor folks, make people with money pay for it with tax dollars but then deny their children this early childhood education experience" attitude. That is, I believe, why there is so much anger about paying taxes for these kinds of programs. Why SHOULD I pay into a system that won't benefit my own children as well? I'm supposed to pay to subsidize someone else's child for preschool and then pay separately for my own child to attend an unsubsidized program? Why? Because in theory I can? Tell me again why I took out all of those college loans that I'll be paying back well into retirement....tell me again why I worked my fanny off? So I can pay for me and you? Hey...I'm willing to chip in and pay for you...but then I want my child to have the same benefits.

Oh wait...I'm a rich dawkter's wife I shouldn't need to send my children to preschool at all....my home should be one big learning adventure because even though I'm not a trained preschool/elementary teacher I should have an innate knowledge about how exactly to teach to this population. After all...teaching children doesn't require any special skill, right?

In the UK, kids start school at age 4. The tromp off in their little dresses or wearing their suits and ties and have a fabulous time. I had the opportunity to see the system close up in N. Ireland and it was awesome. During that time, my dear friend's 4 year old started school...and he loved it. It was an age-approporiate program and was part of the public schools.

Interestingly, no one really starts freaking out about how much we spend in comparison to the rest of the world on our military. We could cut our military spending in HALF and still spend more than the next nation in line.

The schools here are toying with the idea of a 4 day week to save money on electricity, etc.....they are moving towards the idea of doing away with the busses...several schools here were shut down 2 years ago and all gifted programs were stopped in st cloud elementary schools......but yet we can fund a new nuclear program, subsidize the airline's coming up with a new and exciting 'air bus' to travel in (while complaining that the europeans are doing the same and it isn't 'fair' )


grrrr...this is why I stepped out of this conversation. I will return to my straight jacket and get back to the next verse of kumbaya.

Sally...I hope you are feeling better. I had the flu last week and it was terrible!

kris

[Rapunzel]

I wasn't the one that hurt anyone's feelings this time! Yay me!



Jennifer

(Sorry, just being weird today ).

[PrincessFiona]

[SueC]

Last night my dh came across this article and was going on and on about how great it was--then he came into the room and said "so, what can I do to make things better for you?"!

[spotty_dog]

....and (since I'm on a rampage) may I just add that I also hate the "lets provide early childhood education for those poor folks, make people with money pay for it with tax dollars but then deny their children this early childhood education experience" attitude. That is, I believe, why there is so much anger about paying taxes for these kinds of programs. Why SHOULD I pay into a system that won't benefit my own children as well? I'm supposed to pay to subsidize someone else's child for preschool and then pay separately for my own child to attend an unsubsidized program? Why? Because in theory I can? Tell me again why I took out all of those college loans that I'll be paying back well into retirement....tell me again why I worked my fanny off? So I can pay for me and you? Hey...I'm willing to chip in and pay for you...but then I want my child to have the same benefits.

Kris, I know you're just venting here but this kind of bothers me. The basic concept is "those who pay more in taxes are unfairly excluded from the programs that are supported by tax money".

But I'm sure you're not complaining that you don't get WIC or food stamps, nor demanding your share of welfare and Medicaid. Unfortunately, when the government uses tax revenue to help the less fortunate members of society, that means that the more fortunate members of society -- even though they worked hard to get where they are -- are paying into a system that doesn't tangibly benefit them.

So the solution would be, dissolve all public support programs in favor of encouraging individuals to be industrious -- nothing like abject poverty with no government support to give a welfare mom the kick in the pants to get a college degree and a well-paying job, right? Or leave the system as it is, but work to elect those individuals who will support those programs we approve of.

I don't think picking and choosing programs that feel unfair will work though.

[PrincessFiona]

I think that these are two different things though, Alison. I firmly support the creation of a universal healthcare program (even though I would keep my private insurance for as long as I could pay) and support the idea of tax dollar funded welfare/job retraining and WIC programs. I would expect WIC to be available to me in the case that we would run into tough times because we have paid into the styem.

I think that we should all pay the same PERCENTAGE of payroll tax. Of course those that earn more will pay more, but the idea that individuals who go to college and sacrifice to earn higher incomes should in turn payer a higher percentage of their take home pay in taxes bothers me. Even better is that complaining about this is essence makes me look selfish: "look at her, what...she can't live on x dollars after taxes.." Hey...our children won't be eligible for pell grants or certain loan programs...we'll have to earn more to set that money aside. We don't get to have the state of MN pay for our son's jaw problems and delta dental won't cover it....If my husband didn't work, he'd get his treatment for free. At some level there is injustice.

We earn more money, but we pay 4X more money in student loan payments than our friends who are highschool teachers, don't have the tax benefits from our educational laon debt, medical bills or children that they have, and we pay a higher percentage of our overall income into a system that doesn't benefit us at all.

At the end of the day, the couple we are friends with who are both teachers are more financially stable than we are despite their lower income. They take a vacation every year (and sometimes two), get money back from the taxman every year, live in a nice home and can afford a lot of extras. We live in a nice home, owe money to the taxman and can't afford many extras at all yet. They have been paying into a retirement system for nearly 10 years now...we've been paying in for a year....


I think we should take a closer look at the needs in this country.....and make a decision as a people about what is important. There should be budget cuts....but social programs like welfare, wic, education etc should be funded appropriately. I'm not against paying taxes...I just want there to be more fairness in the system. I had no idea the amount of unfairness until we got to this point and yes, it bothers me.....why did we work so hard to get to this point?

[spotty_dog]

I think we should take a closer look at the needs in this country.....and make a decision as a people about what is important. There should be budget cuts....but social programs like welfare, wic, education etc should be funded appropriately. I'm not against paying taxes...I just want there to be more fairness in the system. I had no idea the amount of unfairness until we got to this point and yes, it bothers me.....why did we work so hard to get to this point?

Admittedly our situation is very, very different from yours. And I think I'll stop here because of that. I'm in a position where I can afford to be theoretically generous, and at the same time I have so few material needs that putting numbers on things just scares me.

Anyway, as far as why you and Thomas worked so hard to get here...surely at some level it had to do with a desire to practice medicine?

Just a thought...

[PrincessFiona]

Of course it did, Alison....we didn't take this road for money...there are easier ways to earn more in less time. Should docs practice medicine for purely altruistic reasons. Don't forget until recently I've been a raging liberal...keep in mind that I'm surprised by my own feelings.

That being said, would you then support the idea of wealth redistribution by saying for example...every job should earn the same or a similar salary? Lets take away student loans for a minute...should a teacher earn the same as a garbage collector, mcdonald's employee, physician, etc?

Why and why not?

If we say no to wealth redistribution, then how much more theoretically should a doctor earn than a garbage collector? How much more should a lawyer earn than a teacher...etc etc.... How much is the intellectual input worth?

Is it fair to look down on someone who has worked hard to finally earn more if they say "gee, I want to pay for my own kid's braces, save for my own kid's college education and yes...even take a vacation" instead of paying more taxes beyond what everyone else pays? Do we look down on people who pay almost nothing in taxes but still want good public schools or affordable healthcare? No....We don't even seem to mind that they want you and I to pay a greater percentage of money for it to pay for both us and them.

Maybe I've been on the receiving end of too many people lately who want their 'fair share' of our income. Everyone that finds out that dh is a dawkter suddenly has a friend or relative that wants us to come to their home party etc. A friend of mine actually got angry with me for not spending more at her party because 1. she could have earned more free product and 2. she knew that I had the money and couldn't understand why I was being so cheap.

[spotty_dog]

Of course it did, Alison....we didn't take this road for money...there are easier ways to earn more in less time. Should docs practice medicine for purely altruistic reasons.

If that's the impression I gave, I made a poor job of phrasing my suggestion. What I was trying to get across was precisely what you say here: there are easier ways to earn money. And don't forget to take stock of what you do have (not relative to your teacher friends, but just as an absolute) and the choices you've made. You've got four beautiful children, and that's quite a luxury to afford in this day and age. You're very lucky to have them, eh?

Is it fair to look down on someone who has worked hard to finally earn more if they say "gee, I want to pay for my own kid's braces, save for my own kid's college education and yes...even take a vacation" instead of paying more taxes beyond what everyone else pays? Do we look down on people who pay almost nothing in taxes but still want good public schools or affordable healthcare? No....We don't even seem to mind that they want you and I to pay a greater percentage of money for it to pay for both us and them.

Again, my situation is just not similar to yours and never will be. I guess I look at my in-laws (FIL is an MD) who have had the money to put away for their kids and grandkids, have nice vacations and indulge in enjoyable hobbies, for decades. They're now enjoying a fantastic retirement -- and are still raging liberals. And I look at my own folks, my dad is an engineer making I think six figures now. I don't think we ever got a tax refund, but we did get the Alaska Permanent Fund Dividend which made it possible for us to have our annual vacation...

Maybe I've been on the receiving end of too many people lately who want their 'fair share' of our income. Everyone that finds out that dh is a dawkter suddenly has a friend or relative that wants us to come to their home party etc.

I saw where you posted this story before, and that's just ick. I'm sorry that people are so petty and shallow!

[PrincessFiona]

Alison,

You didn't do a poor job...I jumped to conclusions. I'm feeling a wee bit...prickly about this topic because we got pinched soooo hard this year.

I support many liberal policies but I think I'd just go about paying for them differently.

At the end of the day, you and I aren't really that far apart politically...right now I'm just going through sticker shock when it comes to taxes and the idea of raising the social security income cap.

If I sat down and wrote out the numbers for you...how much we take in, how much we pay in taxes, how much we pay out for education loan payments, you might say with me...... This path was our choice, but it is so much different to talk about paying taxes and a willingness to support these social programs and then seeing the money taken away. That makes it hard....At the end of the day, most people earning less money usually get some or all of their taxes back at the end of the year. We get to pay in more.

What you have said is food for thought and I promise to sit down with a clear head and rethink some of my positions again.

kris

[mommax3]

Okay, (as I crawl back from the brink of death ) this will be my final post in this thread.....I just had to respond to one thing, Kris.....

....and (since I'm on a rampage) may I just add that I also hate the "lets provide early childhood education for those poor folks, make people with money pay for it with tax dollars but then deny their children this early childhood education experience" attitude.

I believe that Head Start was begun in an attempt to minimize the deficits between poor kids and kids who are not by the time they reach kindergarten age. The studies I have seen on the results (and I haven't done anything in-depth, believe me) have indicated that the program has been successful in closing that gap, giving kids who would otherwise almost certainly experience failure early in their school experience a fighting chance at graduating and perhaps breaking the cycle of early poverty. The only problems I have heard about Head Start is that there are not enough centers for the kids who are qualified.

My kids have been blessed (as I was) in simply being born into a family where there is no drug/alcohol abuse or spousal abuse. We are a family that values education and we have lots and lots of books and other educational toys around our house. There is always something to eat and we have never been in danger of losing our home. My husband and I were parented well (not perfectly!) and that legacy in turn enriches our children's lives. I wish that every child could have this kind of "leg up" on life, but since they can't, due to circumstances or their parents' poor choices or a combination of the two, I will gladly fund Head Start and other similar programs, and if I could pay more into programs such as these by doing so directly, I would.

The fact that I function better with some time away from my kids pales in comparison to the sad facts of life for disadvantaged little ones. I CAN pay for preschool AND books AND food AND shelter. Their parents (or more likely parent) are struggling to pay for the basics, never mind the educational toys/books that are casually thrown around my house. And I will go out on a limb (and risk being labeled idealistic ) and say that if I had to choose between preschool for my own kid or Head Start for a kid that started out with the odds against them......I would choose Head Start. My kid will be okay regardless.....I have endless resources compared to the other kid's mom/dad.


Sally