How Personally do you take Debates?

[PrincessFiona]

I'm pretty laid back about the whole debate thing. I have strong personal opinions, but I have fun debating about it all..I enjoy reading other people's perspectives, getting all excited about it, thinking of new responses, etc. In europe, it is really common to go out to the local bars and have coffee or beer and talk politics, religion, etc until late in the night. People get excited, animated and all kinds of things...and for the most part no one took it really personally....

I guess that's kind of where I fall too...I get excited, animated and don't take it all personally...but I've recognized over the last year that a lot of people really do...and it seems to be very hard to be friends here with people with different political ideologies because you can't talk about your differences. My neighbor is very pro-Bush and pro-Iraq. She has yellow ribbons up on all of her trees, Bush bumper stickers and a flag hanging in the yard. I have listend to plenty of pro-Bush rhetoric from her. One day before the elections (she assumed I was voting for Bush) I mentioned that I would be voting for Kerry. She said "don't tell me, or we can't be friends anymore". I found that to be offensive because I have no problem at all hearing her pro-Bush, pro-Iraq war opinions...

Do you take debates personally? Would you ever consider ending a friendship with someone who has other political or religious beliefs?

kris

[Sheherezade]

In general, I can put emotion aside when debating. I do have hot buttons, though, as I am sure most people do. I have also found that when I am uncertain about my position and attempt to debate, I can get flustered/insulted if I get slammed for not having enough support. I do believe that people have a right to their opinions, and that even when those opinions are unsupported there is probably some reason behind them that has yet to be expressed. If you attack, I don't think those reasons or rationales ever become clear.

My theory is that the tenor of a debate is largely affected by the motivations of the debators. If they want to learn each other's views, they can be fun and stimulating. If the debators want to present and defend their own opinion (with no intention of backing off a point or changing a view), they can be fun to watch/read but difficult to participate in unless you have a strongly set and researched opinion. Of course on the national level, you get an entirely different type of debate: the participants are just out to present their soundbytes no matter what questions are asked . I think all parties need to be clear on what kind of debate they are entering - and on this board that seems to differ with topic. If I think I am having a two way conversation and I am actually engaged in a two position formal debate - well- that can lead to misunderstandings. If that happened, I would probably walk away. After all, it is the "debate" forum and maybe I entered unprepared.

On a more global level, I am disturbed by the current two camp thinking in our country. I usually consider myself a democratic semi-liberal person. Lately, I feel like a traitor if I have a view that differs from my "party line". That bothers me. I assume (and we all know what that means ) that happens on the other "side" as well. I have made a promise to myself to try harder to see issues from both sides and play devil's advocate with myself from now on before deciding an issue. JMHO, but I think as a country we all need to be more respectful of one another and make an effort to get together on the issues in which we can have compromise and come to a better understanding on those that cannot.

[SuzySunshine]

I agree that the debates can be fun but when people start saying negative things about others views without explaining why they feel that way it puts things in a negative light and I've noticed that is when people stop posting.

One day before the elections (she assumed I was voting for Bush) I mentioned that I would be voting for Kerry. She said "don't tell me, or we can't be friends anymore".

Hmmm...well, at least she warned you!

I wouldn't end a friendship because of a difference in political or religious beliefs unless that person couldn't accept that my beliefs were different and was constantly trying to change my mind or their beliefs were offensive. If there is a big difference, sometimes it's better to ignore it and focus on the common ground!

[Rapunzel]

Well, if I ended friendships over differing political views I would be out of some of my best friendships! Now, with that being said, if I had friends that had political views that found my lifestyle distasteful or wrong I would be unable to remain their friends - not out of anger or hatred - but, rather, out of the fact that I would not be getting the support that I so desperately need from that particular friendship. Keeping that last sentence in mind, it is my experience that "birds of a feather flock together". I believe that is mainly out of the ability to empathize and support another person whose views and background are shared. I must admit that I have a couple of close friends who are middle-aged, liberal, black women whose life experience is entirely different from my own. But, because we share deeply held religious beliefs we have a common bond that allows us to be supportive. I've also walked away from potential friendships where there was absolutely no common bond on which to build a level of support.

Personally, I go for more of the "formal debate" format because that was what I was trained in and it tends to keep the emotional aspect seperate from the logic/reasoning/supportive information aspect. Once emotion is involved it becomes an argument - not a debate. When I am in a formal debate "mode" I am not looking for friendship or support. I am simply engaging in what I was trained to do much as a basketball player is. An athlete can play for a team and play hard - beating down on the players on his opponents' side. But, that athlete can still have strong friendships with a player on an opposing team. Why? Because it is a competition - a game - a "match". They lay aside emotion and they play to win. I am the same way with a debate. That is the way I was trained - to play the game and win. Problems only occur for me when I either 1) find myself waaay too emotionally tied to a subject (such as the Terri Schiavo subject recently) or 2)find myself encountering a person or persons who are unable to seperate their emotions from the debate and choose to become hurt or offended as a result (similar to a player on a basketball team choosing to take every play by the opposing team personally and emotionally - as an insult).

So, there are times that I allow my emotions to get the better of me in a debate. Once that happens, I know I have stopped truly "debating" and I need to pull back and exit the debate. I think what a lot of people don't realize and were never taught is that "debate" IS a sport and that is the way I treat it.

And, I must add, I've actually not allowed myself to take the gloves off completely in this particular debate forum recently because I fear there are too many that do not know the difference between an emotional plea and a true "debate". Therefore, I have a good idea that many would choose to become offended if I took a position and defended it as strongly as I could.

I think something that would make this debate forum less emotional and more of a "debate" format would be to have a subject matter and then assign posters willing to participate a stance on the subject. This means that much of the time we would be forced to make a case for a side that we actually disagree with. The point of such an exercise is twofold: 1) It might change some peoples' minds or at least allow them to understand the reasoning behind the opinions with which they disagree and 2) The best way to understand the strengths of one's own position is to attempt to disprove it - REALLY disprove it, not just some half-hearted attempt.

Jennifer

[HeartRN]

I feel strongly about certain things, but I am very willing to hear all sides. Truth be told, just reading some of the debates here in this forum have changed or nearly changed my opinion. In essence I agree with what Angie said:

My theory is that the tenor of a debate is largely affected by the motivations of the debators. If they want to learn each other's views, they can be fun and stimulating. If the debators want to present and defend their own opinion (with no intention of backing off a point or changing a view), they can be fun to watch/read but difficult to participate in unless you have a strongly set and researched opinion.

.....and by the way, the European-type debate sounds awesome, Kris! I was a Poli Sci major (first BA before going back for BSN), and this is often the format in which we had our best discussions. We would even hang out in bars with our professors!

I agree that a lot of people can't step back from their own values and debate for the sake of debating.

I remember in freshman English a young woman was given an assignment to write a paper supporting teaching kids about contraception. She personally felt that staying a virgin until you married was the way to go, and was devastated when the professor refused to let her do her paper on another topic.


I don't discuss religion with a number of family members because they take my religious choices as a personal insult to their own. I also do not discuss politics with some family members for the same reason. This last election, a family member went off on people voting the party line without researching the candidates. He simply couldn't wrap his head around the idea someone could have researched and STILL come up with a different candidate than his own.

[Meenah]

I don't take any of it personally unless I am personally attacked.
Luanne

[Flynn]

I generally like debating or listening in on a debate. I do agree with previous posters about the "motivation" for the debate. Are people trying to learn, or change the opposition's views? Debating to see other sides or for the thrill is fine, debating to change people generally gets too emotional to be productive.

I have hot spots and I tend to get competitive with people sometimes which is not productive. When that happens I have to remind myself to grow up!!

Sometimes I think people get turned off due to the other person getting passionate about what they believe. Passion is good unless it turns to anger or sarcasm....

Just my thoughts...

[mommax3]

I don't take it personally unless I am personally attacked, (as in "anyone who thinks that____________ is an idiot" or anyone who voted for ________can't possibly care about _____________") but I rarely know enough about a topic to debate it just for the pure intellectual exercise of debate. If I know something (beyond sound bytes) on a topic, it is because I care about it and feel strongly about it.....and then I think perhaps debating is anappropriate, because once I have researched something to that point, I have pretty much made up my mind. I also think that I may tend to state my views too forcefully when my mind is made up, which may be offensive to others. I do enjoy following debates when the subject is something I haven't thought about.....I usually learn quite a bit!

I do like "discussing" issues with those (whether or not they agree with me) whom I have established a certain level of trust, but I don't know that I enjoy debates as much. Once the discussion escalates to the level of debate, I get uncomfortable because I am afraid I might offend someone. Many of my positions on issues are based on my religious beliefs and I don't expect people to share my position if they don't share my beliefs (nor do I think less of them if they don't).....I do, however, think I should be able to state my position and not be stereotyped as part of the "religious right". It seems like if your position stems from a religious belief, people sometimes stop listening and just assume that you are a "follower" and have never thought through the issues, which is just not true for me.

I would never refuse to be friends with someone just because our political or religious beliefs differ. It is comfortable to be with people who think exactly like you do, but not particularly stimulating.....and eventually, it is boring! I agree with Rapunzel, though, that support would have to be present in the friendship, and I would add respect to that as well.

Interesting question, Kris.

Sally

[PrincessFiona]

I remember in freshman English a young woman was given an assignment to write a paper supporting teaching kids about contraception. She personally felt that staying a virgin until you married was the way to go, and was devastated when the professor refused to let her do her paper on another topic.

Tracy, I had a great English teacher for the 10th grade who had us discuss our views on certain issues....and then as a surprise assignment, he made us write a paper defending the opposite point of view. It was really hard to do and was probably one of my most valuable lessons in high school. He told us that in order to understand our own views we had to be able to completely understand the opposite point of view...that it would strengthen our beliefs. He was right.

[PrincessFiona]

.....and by the way, the European-type debate sounds awesome, Kris! I was a Poli Sci major (first BA before going back for BSN), and this is often the format in which we had our best discussions. We would even hang out in bars with our professors!

It was one of the most amazing experiences for me, because I grew up being taught that it was most important to be "polite"...which translated into not making waves or saying my true opinion for fear it would hurt someone's feelings. I have to be honest though, that for the most part, I still end up not talking politics with my "live" friends here...

I love getting together with our friends here that are also from germany...and another couple that lived in germany. We usually end up drinking wine and talking politics late into the night....

[Sheherezade]

Kris-

Do you disagree with your German friends on major issues of politics? Or is it more comisseration? Just curious. I am trying to figure out how these conversations differ from the ones you have with people here (in the U.S.) . Is it their reaction to your opinions? Could it be because you are from different countries and not fighting for control in the same political system? Do they have more of a solutions-based style of discussion or are they more exposed to other cultures and open to new ideas? ( How many theories can I generate?? )

[PrincessFiona]

Truth be told, Angie, a lot of times I sat on the sidelines as a mere spectator (feeling too ignorant to participate ) The people arguing though had different opinions....sometimes vastly so. I would say that my opinions were definitely changed while I was there though because I came to Germany saying "why close the stores at 6pm...we have 24 hour wal-mart" etc and left the country saying "why be open 24 hours a day...."

I disagree with my german friends here on some things. We had a big argument about the naming of my 4th child. He was named Aidan Adolf ...the Adolf part is after Thomas' dad. His father had recently passed away and we did this to honor him.

One of my german friends was hysterical about this...and in true german style was not afraid to 1. share her feelings and 2. discuss this with me ad nauseum thinking that I might somehow decide to go and change his birth certificate now that she had had her say.

There are no hard feelings....at least I know where I stand...and honestly, I prefer it. She also knows my feelings and intentions....I like being able to be honest with someone about my feelings/thoughts...it's such a breath of fresh air. I can't imagine a single one of my family members or friends who would have dared say anything like that to me...though they may have talked amongst themselves. I know that if I need an honest opinion though, I can go to this friend of mine.

I think that what is different about germany (at least how I experienced it) is that they are generally as self-critical as they are US critical. In general, the people are more critical of their politicians (and their motives) and their government...probably because they have been led pretty far astray in the past. Most news reports were an attempt to simply report facts...The reports are non-emotional (no "we're #1" tickers running on the bottom of the screen while the moderator (blond, blue eyes, big boobs) gushes over the latest decision by the govt....)

I differed from my german friends in the idea that the US needed a healthcare plan for all...I was all into the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps or go to the county hospital" mentality. Obviously, they were able to change my mind. :>

kris

[Sheherezade]

Interesting. Sometimes I think there really is some type of communal psychology to a country. The U.S. seems young with all the good and bad things that come with that (energy, idealism.....arrogance, impatient); some europeans seem "older" with the good and bad of that as well (wisdom....complacency?). I'm sure that doesn't hold up, but I just thought I'd throw it out there. Debates here have so much passion and idealism but not as much acceptance that "it is what it is". (I'm pretty tired, so that probably doesn't make any sense. ) Thanks for answering my question, though. I have spent much time thinking about how we could all get along better in this country. No matter how many programs or talks are devoted to that topic though, I just hear the same old fights. It's interesting to ponder if others do things in a better way. BTW, I have 1 German friend, and she's pretty upfront with her opinions as well. (Of course, when we disagree I'm sure she just thinks I'm stupid, so either I have no confidence or the whole respect each other thing isn't happening over there either!! )

Back on topic: I wouldn't end a friendship over political or religious differences unless they were VERY dramatic. I have put people off myself for being to.....forward? ....with my opinions. I honestly think it is better to know where people stand and why than keep that quiet. Even if its painful. If I had a friend who told me I was going to h**l because I didn't attend her church (that has happened), I could take it once but not on a daily basis . Still, there is something to the old adage "Never speak of politics, sex or religion".

I think you've got something with the comment on the news. I've been focusing on that myself lately. We have so many "facts" out there these days, you can effectively argue anything you want and back it up. You just have to go to the right sources. That certainly makes debates more challenging to interpret when the two sides are operating with completely different data sets. I wish reporting was more objective. It has become entertainment and politics on every front.