Is this all a biblical sign?

[PrincessFiona]

I'm not sure where to post this kind of a question. The only thing I want to be clear about is that I don't intend for this to be a 'there is a god/isn't a god/my religion is better than yours' type of a discussion. (Just had to say it in advance )

I have been thinking a lot about religion, spirituality, faith etc lately. One thing that struck me is that if these were biblical times, the Tsunami would have been written in the current version of the bible as something of a sign or important historical biblical event...as would the death of the Pope. These are both huge events in mankind and are at least as big as many of the things that we already have documented in the bible.

Should we have biblical scholars out there...updating the bible? Is it a finite document or is it something that continues to live on but just has not been...updated. As a society, have we come to believe that all of those 'signs' and biblical stories are past and we have stopped looking at today for miracles and great religious leaders.

Surely Pope John Paul II deserves a very important place in world religion....not just the catholic faith. He was a religious leader who attempted to unite all people.

Just random thoughts...

kris

[mommax3]

I think the reason the Bible is not updated is because biblical scholars view it as the literal word of God and the events that are included have to pass a number of tests (don't ask me what they are! ) to prove their authenticity. So even the historical events that are included in the Bible are thought to be included because God caused the writers to include those things.....

I have thought about how the tsunami or 9-11 would be described had they happened in biblical times.....it is interesting to consider.

Sally

[Meenah]

That is an interesting thought Kris. I'm not sure what I think, but it will probably be on my mind all day!!
Luanne

[Sheherezade]

The end is near . I thought last Fall was ....biblical....with all the hurricanes and earthquakes and mudslides. Add in 9/11, the tsunami, the latest earthquakes and the Pope's death and we do live in exciting times. Honestly, though, I think times like this have occurred scattered throughout the course of history. I always wonder what to make of WWII and Hitler--and Rwanda--in a spiritual sense. It would be interesting to see how previous reworkings of the Bible (new versions) were brought about. Sadly, now that you have planted this seed, I see a Evolvingbible.com in our future. Wiki technology.......hmmmm. As I said, the end is near .

I

[DCJenn]

I think that the issue is that things that are of historical importance shift over time. I'm sure the people in the San Francisco earthquake in the early 1900's thought that it was of biblical proportion. However, with 100 years now passed, it wasn't that big, there have been bigger and much more 'historical' events.

The Tsunami was the result of a standard pattern of ocean floor disruptions. So, the disruptions occur regularly, but how the water is moved depends on how the floor moves (just read about this after the earthquake from last week). It's "epic" or biblical in its awfulness but the cause was pretty mundane. It would have merited mention in the bible, I'm sure. BUT- how it will be interpreted in 1000 years? who knows.

Perceptions change so what is epic now, may not be in a few years.

Some other examples of things that might be included in an update? Hiroshima, the plague, the invention of the car, pollution...

Jenn

[SueC]

Being that I'm very paranoid, I try to not think that any of those types of events are biblical signs. Actually, like whoever mentioned the earthquake in the earlier part of last century, it sort of comforts to me to know that those types of major catastrophies have been occuring all along (I just re-read that last sentence and it sounds pretty screwy ). Anyhow, I'm trying to just be thankful that I'm not personally in the midst of any type of disaster (knock on wood) while trying to be mindful of those that are.

[PrincessFiona]

I think the reason the Bible is not updated is because biblical scholars view it as the literal word of God and the events that are included have to pass a number of tests (don't ask me what they are! ) to prove their authenticity. So even the historical events that are included in the Bible are thought to be included because God caused the writers to include those things.....

I have thought about how the tsunami or 9-11 would be described had they happened in biblical times.....it is interesting to consider.

Sally

But why are the things that are happening now not also considered to be acts of God or even...the literal word of God. Is no one inspired by God anymore? Does God not speak to or through even the highest religious leaders?

This is a very interesting subject to me...I'm not discounting the bible..I'm just thinking that today we are, perhaps, not as in tune to these things anymore and that even though many people cry out for "a sign" that perhaps the signs are all there...but we're missing them.

I don't know..again, this is just my ramble.

[Sheherezade]

As long as we are waxing philosophic.....

I have a strong resistance to fundementalism because I think of the Bible as the words of man--not divine. Not that there isn't a lot of good stuff in there - but I am always aware that this was written by men and altered along the way for political reasons. Last night I was pondering this particular inclination and wondering why the Bible would have significance at all if its been so tampered with over time. Anyway, I was comforted by my belief that a higher power simply wouldn't allow this document to have this much significance for so long if it was void of meaning. The readings that hold meaning to us spiritually do so because they resonate in the lives of so many. To me, that is God walking among us. I know this is my own wacky brand of religion, but I do think there are signs out there for each and every one of us every day. You just have to listen for them.

(stepping down from my pulpit......)

[Rapunzel]

I'm not discounting the bible..I'm just thinking that today we are, perhaps, not as in tune to these things anymore and that even though many people cry out for "a sign" that perhaps the signs are all there...but we're missing them.

Well, I "debated" (there I am with those darn puns again - I'm in such a dorky mood today! ) whether I should respond to this subject in public or just pm you, Kris.

I thought I would let you know that in latter-day scripture we DO have signs such as tsunamis mentioned:

Doctrine and Covenants Section 45 (given March 7, 1831):

22 Ye say that ye know that the end of the world cometh; ye say also that ye know that the heavens and the earth shall pass away;

23 And in this ye say truly, for so it is; but these things which I have told you shall not pass away until all shall be fulfilled.

24 And this I have told you concerning Jerusalem; and when that day shall come, shall a remnant be scattered among all nations;

25 But they shall be gathered again; but they shall remain until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

26 And in that day shall be heard of wars and rumors of wars, and the whole earth shall be in commotion, and men’s hearts shall fail them, and they shall say that Christ delayeth his coming until the end of the earth.

27 And the love of men shall wax cold, and iniquity shall abound.

28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a blight shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;

29 But they receive it not; for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.

30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

31 And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge; for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.

32 But my disciples shall stand in holy places, and shall not be moved; but among the wicked, men shall lift up their voices and curse God and die.

33 And there shall be earthquakes also in divers places, and many desolations; yet men will harden their hearts against me, and they will take up the sword, one against another, and they will kill one another.

Doctrine and Covenants Section 88 (given December 27, 1832):

87 For not many days hence and the earth shall tremble and reel to and fro as a drunken man; and the sun shall hide his face, and shall refuse to give light; and the moon shall be bathed in blood; and the stars shall become exceedingly angry, and shall cast themselves down as a fig that falleth from off a fig-tree.

89 For after your testimony cometh the testimony of earthquakes, that shall cause groanings in the midst of her, and men shall fall upon the ground and shall not be able to stand.

90 And also cometh the testimony of the voice of thunderings, and the voice of lightnings, and the voice of tempests, and the voice of the waves of the sea heaving themselves beyond their bounds.

91 And all things shall be in commotion; and surely, men’s hearts shall fail them; for fear shall come upon all people.

Doctrine and Covenants Section 61 (given August 12, 1831):

14 Behold, I, the Lord, in the beginning blessed the waters; but in the last days, by the mouth of my servant John, I cursed the waters.

15 Wherefore, the days will come that no flesh shall be safe upon the waters.

In Peter (New Testament) we read a description of how men will react to the events of the latter-days:

2 Peter 3:3-4

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own clusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

If we read Revelations we see a great many "signs" given for these latter-days. One thing that Jenn brings up that is a good thing to bear in mind is that if a person is writing about things such as modern-day warfare and technology and that person lives, oh say, 2000 years ago then their frame of reference is going to be way, way different.

So, I'm going to quote the next scriptures asking that people take them to be descriptions of objects and specifically technology that a person around two thousand years ago might describe using only the world in which they lived at the time for comparison (and, a highly specific portion of the world at that!):

Revelations 9:3-21 -

3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.

8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.

9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.

10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.

18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

21 Neither repented they of their amurders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.


Now, paying attention to the above, think about how you would describe things such as jet fighters and tanks if you had never seen any form of transportation beyond horses and camels, had never seen metal used for anything but breastplates and spears, had never heard the roar of a jet engine or the rumbling of a tank, etc.

The signs are there to be found in the scriptures, you just have to find them. No, it's true the scriptures don't say, "such and such a person/leader will die at such and such a time" - with the exception of the Messianic prophecies to be found in the Old Testament and other scriptures. The scriptures are there, in the end, to lead men to God. Prophecies included within their pages are not for idle curiosity, but for this specific purpose.

Well, I know I'm not debating. But, I just thought I'd share this information.

Jennifer

[Rapunzel]

I'm just thinking that today we are, perhaps, not as in tune to these things anymore and that even though many people cry out for "a sign" that perhaps the signs are all there...but we're missing them.

I just wanted to add that I am in absolute and total agreement with your observation above, Kris.

Jennifer

Practically every religion out there has an "end times" story. A divine or semi-divine savior will arrive, followed or preceded by natural disasters and social unrest.

The early Christians though the end of the world would be within their lifetimes, or close after. (They probably would also be astounded to hear that their correspondence was being used to determine what is or isn't proper in 2005 )

Every few years we hear about suicide cults who are sure the world is about to end because someone saw a sign.

I prefer to see these things as signs that we need to take care of one another, that it is up to us to make this life and this world as positive a place as we can during our lifetime.

[Sheherezade]

Shouldn't we all be drinking some big bottle of jug wine while we discuss this?

Thanks for the stimulating yet mellow discussion. Very interesting topic.

[PrincessFiona]

Why do you think mankind is always seeking a "sign?" ....

I think it is easier to belive what we can see.

ladybug wrote:
Why do you think mankind is always seeking a "sign?" ....


I think it is easier to belive what we can see.

There is a Sunday School lesson about FAITH right here....

[PrincessFiona]

I think you're right.