Sprawlmart

[houseelf]

Has anyone seen the new Walmart film, Wal-Mart: The High Cost of Low Price? I think that is only out on coastal cities right now, but I will definitely try to catch this one.

With the exception of a single slip by DH, this household has not patronized Walmart in 2005. I urge holiday shoppers to consider the following websites before purchasing: http://www.walmartwatch.com and http://www.wakeupwalmart.com.

Kelly

[houseelf]

Note: This post was removed and posted here because I accidently posted it as a response to an unrelated topic instead of a new topic.

My apologies.

Kelly

[Vanquisher]

Here is my bitter attitude again. I think Wal-Mart is being made out to be the bully of the Western World. Why? Because they are the biggest and the most successful.

Do I shop at Wal-Mart?

Yes.

Am I going to stop shopping at Wal-Mart?

Not now. Maybe in 4 years.

The fact is that they are a lot cheaper than their competitors, and it is hard to ask people to spend more money. Target IS more expensive. I doubt Target is a perfect corporation either. I don't have a Super Target near me, and so I will continue to purchase my groceries from Wal-Mart, as I cannot afford to increase my grocery bill by 30% (estimating here). I am not condoning Wal-Mart's practices, but I wonder how much of their "badness" is blown out of proportion, especially in comparison to other discount department stores.

I don't buy a lot of home goods, but I split those purchases between different retailers (Target, Wal-Mart, Bed Bath & Beyond, etc.) based upon what I am looking for, how it feets my needs, quality, and price, but Wal-Mart gets my grocery money.

[DCJenn]

I won't shop at Walmart, period. However, that's not too hard since there ISN'T a big box retailer other than Home Depot in the city in the first place. and if I have to get in my car to buy groceries (usually I just walk across the street to the Scary Safeway (which is better than the Soviet Safeway and the UnSafeway), not that our grocers have issues in the city...) I'm going to the commissary and putting your tax dollars to work for me.

But, I used to shop at Wal-mart in Texas until I heard about the fact that they will cover Viagra for their male employees but not birth control for their female employees. ick.

Jenn

I've not seen the film, but I do avoid Wal-Mart. I have to admit that my initial avoidance was mostly for esthetic reasons. I simply hate the feel of the place. I've also encountered some really icky people at Wal-Mart (both customers and employees) Target is so much nicer, I've found their prices to be comparable, and their home stuff to be nicer as well.

Just last week I was listening to NPR and heard an interview with someone who'd done a study on Wal-Mart and it's effect on society and would be presenting his results at a conference hosted by Wal-Mart in D.C. His conclusions were not positive for Wal-Mart - but at least they were still letting him present.

The main thing that concerns me is that Wal-Mart apparently keeps the bulk of it's workforce (70 to 80%) at below the # of hours required for benefits, which is how they save so much money. Much of their workforce is on public assistance, so taxpayers foot the bill for their healthcare as well. It left me wondering how Target ranks in that department, and if they are better about it, then how do they keep their prices low?

[Rapunzel]

My points:

1) Yup, their prices are rock-bottom and can't be beat. I have shopped at Wal-Mart before. Why? For the same reasons Heidi does right now - I was dirt poor. The vast majority of people I know who have a Wal-Mart nearby shop there for a similar reason. I honestly get soooo annoyed at these little mom and pop businesses that start complaining when a Wal-Mart or other large department store moves in. If I need some hardware guess what? I'm not going to go to the little store around the corner from my house I'm going to hop in the car and drive the half mile to Home Depot. Why? Because I'm not made of money. It's called capitalism. And, if you want to compete you have to stop your whining and put together an action plan.\

2) Wal-Mart DOES treat their employees like crap. Definitely. But, in many areas (I can think of a couple in Texas off the top of my head) they are the major employer for the area. They bring jobs. May not be the best jobs in the universe, but they are jobs none-the-less. These jobs may not be enough to get people off of Medicaid, but they are a step in the right direction. The fact is that there will ALWAYS be a heirarchy of good-better-best jobs in the world. It's always been that way: stable cleaner below carpenter below banker. Because economics and human nature determine what goods and services are more desirable you will always see differences in pay and quality of life among different types of workers. Attempts to "iron out" these differences via socialism end up being farcical (if you believe some commentary the riots in France right now are due to socialism at work there) and creating an "underclass" of persons dependant upon the government. While not perfect, Wal-Mart at least provides some sort of gainful employment to people seeking an honest living. It's not going to be the same as trading stocks, but it's work.

3) If you dig deep enough you'll find something distasteful about every corporation/employer in the world (not just America). For instance, Target no longer allows the Salvation Army (one of the most dependable, low-overhead charitable organizations in the world) to solicit donations outside of their stores over the holidays. To be honest that totally hacks me off. Will I still shop at Target? Yup. I hate smoking but I just fed my kids a product by RJR Nabisco yesterday. I don't care how green, how organic, or how lovey-dovey an employer claims to be - you're going to find something distasteful and/or unethical in their business practices. Even Saints Ben and Jerry are bound to have some bad things going on under their halos. (And, believe me, if that's the case it won't change the fact that I love me some Ben and Jerry's :yum: ).

4) When I was growing up places like Wal-Mart were actually a step UP from where we normally shopped (ie consignment stores and the Salvation Army stores). It's still like that for many of my relatives. My perspective has changed as we have prospered economically. As my husband points out, there is a difference between poor: ---- and poor: / (ie being poor and always being in that economic condition and being poor as a temporary condition as is the case in the delayed gratification of medical school - one is a static condition and, thus, level, while the other is an upward condition for which a person resides momentarily on the low end). The little mom and pop stores actually charge an arm and a leg compared to Wal-Mart which puts them out of the price range of many Americans. The level of "poor" for the static poor would be all the lower if they were unable to afford home repair items, cooking items, auto maintainance items, etc that are more readily available at Wal-Mart for a lower cost than small specialty stores.

Jennifer

[Rapunzel]

(usually I just walk across the street to the Scary Safeway (which is better than the Soviet Safeway and the UnSafeway), not that our grocers have issues in the city...)

Jenn, I think I've been to one of those Safeways when we were there last fall. It was decidedly scary and not too far away from Walter Reed if I remember correctly. :!

Jennifer

[SueC]

I avoid shopping there. Personally, I think there are better prices to be had at the grocery store I shop at, especially if I buy store brand. And the other merchandise Wal-Mart sells (clothes for ex.) seems to be crap compared to Target's. But mostly I don't shop there because what I have read and heard does indicate that they screw their employees over.

[Vanquisher]

I guess I just do not feel sorry for their employees. There are a lot of retail jobs out there waiting to be had, and if Wal-Mart was such a horrid employer, than they could find different jobs. At my current job, I get paid circa minimum wage, and I have no benefits. I have this job because I can work from home. I have worked at plenty of places where people get paid less and have no benefits. Food service comes to mind. I know plenty of disabled and challenged individuals who worked at Wendy's when I worked there. No one is harping on them. I got paid minimum wage at that job. Some jobs suck. That's the nature of it. Because Wal-Mart is bigger than other employers who offer jobs that suck, they are supposed to have better benefits and the like? I'm sorry, I don't buy it.

http://www.ufcw.org/press_room/fact_she ... /wages.cfm

This page which sites Wal-Marts wages to be poor and portrays them in a negative light. It still manages to say that Wal-Mart employees make more than $8.00 per hour. I don't make that much. I have a college degree. I know a lot of people with my degree that don't make that much working in their chosen filed in degree-required positions.

Yes, it is below poverty-level. The sad truth is that a lot of people besides people who work at Wal-Mart make less than poverty-level wages which is why they have to shop at Wal-Mart.

My brother makes below poverty level. He is a waiter at a restaurant. He complains that I have it easy, and that my husband takes care of me. He works around 30 hours per week. My answer to him, get another job, you bum! My husband works 100+ hours per week. We both went to college. I work, and take care of everything else. In college, we both worked and went to classes full-time, and had a baby.

Wal-Mart is an easy target because it is big.

Has anyone else read the Sam Walton story, it was written at the same time he died.
Just curious....I would comment more, but I have homework to do and kids to chase.....maybe another time.

[Sheherezade]

I do not shop at Walmart often. I have, and probably will again. Now that we are *rich* (i.e. DONE ), I have decided to use my extra dollars to support the lifestyle choices I enjoy. I like local shops surrounded by sidewalks and homes. I like to *walk* home with my purchases. I'm a big fan of the "Think Globally, Act Locally" mentality. We chose to live in a community that had an active downtown area. I won't go shopping for things I need now at Walmart 12 miles away. That would seem hypocritical. However, I don't scream at folks who choose to shop at Walmart. That's their choice - but if they whine about the downtown stores disappearing, I am hard pressed to keep my mouth shut.

Why do I shop at Walmart on occassion? Convenience. Plain and simple. It is open late and has all the things I want in one place. They don't have to order something and have me come back. They can offer this convenience because of their size. Price pressures don't come into play for me. I think the convenience factor is overlooked too often in this debate. Americans LOVE convenience. I used Walmart's digital film developing on our vacation because I knew I could always find one nearby and pick up our pictures along the road trip. Ver-ry convenient. Love it. I try to fight that "need" of mine when I know it is just laziness.

Here are my Walmart policy gripes:

DH has a Walmart employee patient. They are undergoing a change of insurance. It is getting worse. Shocking really - I heard a news story that the Walmart insurance was changing and I assumed it was due to all the bad press on their benefits. Apparently, I was wrong. Now my DH's cancer patients have to pay a $2000 deductable before any coverage kicks in. After that, their copay increased per visit - doubled!! Fun when you are getting chemotherapy, huh? I suppose it was an economic decision on Walmart's part.

I'm also not crazy about buying everything manufactured in other countries. I never saw myself as an "Buy American" bumpersticker kind of gal, but that's more important to me now. Particularly when the foreign made stuff is crappy and the American made stuff it well made. The workers in these countries are in a far worse situation than the Walmart employees. Just an example: I can't stand that the toy manufacturers have been going out of business since Walmart/Kmart and Target started buying knock off copies of toys made in third world countries and underselling them. A world without FAO Schwartz? That's just wrong. When we were in Boston, our community had 4 local toy stores go out of business in one year. Only one was a mom and pop. The others were KB, Imaginarium (T 'r Us) and a NE chain. The toy business is under serious pressure from foreign goods sold via discount stores. Again - foreign labor is a lot cheaper. The restrictions on the companies maufacturing the toys are also few. These nations can offer the toy at a lower price. How can an American company (like Fisher Price) compete?

I was recently in a discussion with several small business owners. It was shocking how hard it is to maintain a small business these days. The rents on good locations are hard to maintain without a chain of national stores to buffer the costs - that's why Brookline's strip of stores on Commonwealth Ave is all cell phone companies and nationally-owned coffee shops now. Who else can afford those kind of rents ? The worker's comp insurance is also insanely high for a small business. One claim can put a store under. (That was the issue I discussed with owners here.) Taxes are also a nightmare for the small business. How can a mom and pop operation act competitively in today's environment with these handicaps? Did Walmart rise to power in the same climate? (I honestly don't know.) I understand why these small shops can't offer the same prices (always) and I don't frequent small shops with bad business practices. But the good ones can't be held to Walmart's price/hours standards. They just can't. So --I'll continue to buy my over priced sneakers at the local shoe store, buy toys and games from our toy shop and books from our bookstore (even though they order them and get them in the same time it would take me to get it from Amazon). That's my choice.

About the film: I read in our local paper that an Ohio mom-and-pop that went under "because of Walmart" was portrayed in the film. The owners of the mom-and-pop operation claim that Walmart had nothing to do with their demise. They say the film twisted the story to fit its agenda. I believe that does happen often - so keep it in mind. I would like to see the film anyway. I am not a Walmart fan politically- but I do think they are a symbol of big business and get tarred and feathered regularly for it.

[SuzySunshine]

Wal-mart is a double edged sword. We do have a Super Target close to our house, though Wal-Mart is closer. We do go to Target when we're looking for something nicer or something I can't find at Wal-Mart, however we spend A LOT of money at Wal-Mart and Sam's. Living in MN with two Super Centers in town the smaller grocery stores have been run out of business, not by the prices as much as the fact that its MN, its cold, and in the winter people don't want to go to Wal-Mart to get household type things and then to the grocery store to get groceries. In and out of the car once is the norm. Our Wal-Mart is literaly four, or so, blocks away from my house. The closest grocery store is about two miles and due to road configuration its not the easiest thing to get to. In a town of 90,000+ we have FOUR regular grocery stores, that is it! I do go to the grocery store if I'm looking for something that Wal-Mart doesn't carry but not often.

When we lived in CA I RARELY went to Wal-Mart because their lines were ridiculously long and 90% of their employees didn't speak english. I think 90% of Wal-Marts problems come from their big city establishments. I think the midwest stores are managed much better and have better employees because they can live on what they're being paid.

I can agree with some points and disagree with others, bottom line is that Wal-Mart isn't going anywhere so people can shop there or not but it will always be around.

I agree with Jennifer that if you look hard enough, every company will have something you don't like about it. It's just that I don't have to look very far with Wal-Mart. I haven't been in a Wal-Mart for over 5 years, mostly by choice but also by location -- they have never been close by.

I don't think it is as simple as small businesses needing to match Wal-Mart prices. Most small business owners aren't rolling in it -- the ones who are likely put a LOT of hard work into it. And in some cases, depending on the state, state tax policies and other issues are not exactly small business friendly. Hm, maybe I should join up with the NFIB.

[mommax3]

I agree that no business out there is blameless in every area. I have been to Wal-Mart plenty of times, and there are boys' jeans in my house that are from Wal-Mart, although now that we are living the "high life" I have upgraded to Levis for the boys.

Personally, now that I live pretty much equally close to a SuperTarget and a WalMart (they are across the highway from each other) I pick SuperTarget every time. SuperTarget is cleaner and less crowded, and to be perfectly honest, whenever I go to WalMart, I get depressed. I am a HUGE people watcher, and there are a lot of desperate looking people (who are usually screaming at their young children, which breaks my heart) shopping at WalMart, no matter when you go. I don't think I am better than they are AT ALL, but it makes me sad to see them and I avoid it if I can. Think what you will about me after reading that.

I don't think anything negative about anyone who shops at WalMart. If I were still pinching pennies, (and according to my husband, we still should be!) I would be there, too. WalMart came relatively late (compared to the south at least) to the midwest, so I had "loyalty" to Target before there was ever a WalMart anywhere near me.....I think that makes a difference, too.

Let's face it, most people who work retail at a chain store don't get paid well or have good benefits. It is still a job for them, sometimes with a nice store discount.....if it is SO horrible at WalMart, you would think that they would have more trouble hiring employees than other stores do....is that the case, does anyone know?

Sally


Sally

SuperTarget is cleaner and less crowded, and to be perfectly honest, whenever I go to WalMart, I get depressed. I am a HUGE people watcher, and there are a lot of desperate looking people (who are usually screaming at their young children, which breaks my heart) shopping at WalMart, no matter when you go. I don't think I am better than they are AT ALL, but it makes me sad to see them and I avoid it if I can. Think what you will about me after reading that.

That's exactly what I was referring to when I mentioned bad experiences and esthetics. I'm right there with you on that one.