Ariel Sharon's condition

I put this in here only b/c it does concern an area of much debate in the world -- not b/c I expect to cause a huge to-do (but who knows what will set this group off!).

I'm curious as to what our Jewish members make of this situation. I know I haven't always agreed with Sharon's hard-line approach, but it sure does seem that he's made the most progress since Rabin. It's unfortunate that this has happened, especially during an election, and during the current shift in parties, etc.

[Meenah]

I usually avoid this topic (husband is Jewish I am not) because I really don't have a great understanding of the whole thing. How can so much blood be shed over a little piece of land? I once suggested making it a lake and allowing everyone to boat on it and my inlaws weren't too happy!!!!

Personally I do feel bad for him. Do you think he might have been a little over-anticoagulated?
Luanne

[Rapunzel]

Oh man, there is a significant part of me that totally agrees with Luanne. From what I understand it's not even that aesthetically pleasing a tiny piece of land.

But, I think it's not actually about the land per se. It's more about culture, history, and hate - basically a continuation of the issues that coalesced just prior to the eruption of WWII (and, have been present in much of written history).

I think it might turn out that Sharon is crazy like a fox. I know that a lot of people thought he was insane for ceding the Gaza Strip to a bunch of thugs. But, now these terrorists are invading Egypt. He basically made them Egypt's neighbors and their new problem (see recent news reports of the last few days).

The Palestinians have been celebrating (having parties, handing out candy in the streets) since Sharon was sent to the hospital the first time days ago. And, Iran's leader is publicly hoping Sharon bites the dust quickly.

It's going to leave a power-vacuum in the Isreali government, that's for sure - and at a critical time when Iran is poised to finish arming missiles with nuclear warheads with the express purpose of "wiping Israel off the map."

[fluffhead]

It's actually quite a beautiful country.

The mood in the country had improved significantly, even with all the opposition to the withdrawal, because it seemed that something was finally happening, and there was some hope for dealing with the situation. I'd noticed a marked increase in optimism from when I'd been there last January, to when I was there this past September, and again in October.

The entire future is really up in the air right now, but things always work out. I guess the new political party he'd just announced is the real kicker - it might just collapse and then there's the fear of business as usual, which means wacky coalition governments and strange bedfellows.

Wow fluff -

As someone who has actually traveled there, I'm really interested to hear more about it from you (if you're willing to share). For example - did you take your kids? I imagine I'd be terrified to go myself with all of the violence, let alone take my children. I lived in an Orthodox neighborhood in Cleveland, and I was floored when speaking with a family who was MOVING there. It just doesn't seem like a risk worth taking (obviously I don't have the religious convictions that drive a lot of the decisions).

[fluffhead]

Two of the last years' three trips were with the kids. We never encountered any dangerous situation. I feel much much safer any place we traveled there than any place in New Haven, by a long shot.
Like any other destination, you need to know where you're going. I would never take my kids to Hebron or Jenin, but in many of the Israeli neighbourhoods and cities, ten and fifteen year old kids can go off by themselves in groups, there's playgrounds all over the place, and the atmosphere is not one of contant vigilance as it is here.

[PrincessFiona]

Well, my fairly uneducated opinion on this topic is that the problem really lies with how israel was formed. After WWII, we (US,GB) basically went into what was then a larger palestine...told people to leave their homes and this was no longer their land and gave it to the new jewsish settlers who felt that this was their 'holy land' all along.

If I had been a Palestinian..I would have been ticked off to.

It is also my understanding that earlier in his career, Sharon encouraged the development of Jewish settlements outside of the boundaries of then 'Israel'. The Palestinians have been outraged, of course...Recently, Sharon began backing down from the whole 'settlement' thing and was forcing withdrawal from settlements for the sake of 'peace'...causing a lot of anger with some israelis.

The US supports Israel by giving her millions and millinions of dollars as well as weapons, etc. We also support Palestine, but give her substantially less dollars that are very controlled...and of course no weapons. So Israel has a much stronger military presence.

I doubt that there is an easy answer to the problem and wonder what will happen now. If Sharon survives, I doubt seriously that he will be capable of leading the country....the future of the peace process does seem up in the air. I disagree that things 'always work out'...they haven't so far.

kris

[fluffhead]

I disagree that things 'always work out'...they haven't so far.

You're right. I was saying that about the political system in Israel - how it always seems on the brink of breakdown, and things always work out.

In the larger picture, things have not worked out. But your view of middle eastern history is somewhat skewed, imho. The settlements that Sharon encouraged were built on land siezed from Jordan and Egypt after they attacked Israel in 1967, and lost.
The roots of the country lie in the British Mandate, which governed Transjordan and Palestine. The plan had been to partition Palestine, but the Arabs rioted and prevented execution of the plan. Eventually the British evacuated. In 1948, after statehood, five Arab countries attacked Israel.
To say that Arabs have a claim to the land and Jews don't is a fallacy - a very small portion of the land was inhabited and cultivated by Arabs prior to 1948, and you also ignore millenia of history prior to the Jews' expulsion from the land.
Anyway, this is a HUGE issue, obviously. My feelings are probably evident, with my own biases.
If you'd like to read the other side of the story, try
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... mftoc.html

[fluffhead]

Back to Sharon - here's a depressing op-ed piece...
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/06/opinion/06morris.html

[PrincessFiona]

I disagree that things 'always work out'...they haven't so far.

You're right. I was saying that about the political system in Israel - how it always seems on the brink of breakdown, and things always work out.

In the larger picture, things have not worked out. But your view of middle eastern history is somewhat skewed, imho. The settlements that Sharon encouraged were built on land siezed from Jordan and Egypt after they attacked Israel in 1967, and lost.
The roots of the country lie in the British Mandate, which governed Transjordan and Palestine. The plan had been to partition Palestine, but the Arabs rioted and prevented execution of the plan. Eventually the British evacuated. In 1948, after statehood, five Arab countries attacked Israel.
To say that Arabs have a claim to the land and Jews don't is a fallacy - a very small portion of the land was inhabited and cultivated by Arabs prior to 1948, and you also ignore millenia of history prior to the Jews' expulsion from the land.
Anyway, this is a HUGE issue, obviously. My feelings are probably evident, with my own biases.
If you'd like to read the other side of the story, try
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... mftoc.html

moi..a skewed view? I guess it does all depend on the sources you read too...unfortunately, even history is left up to the interpretation of historians who tend to write things the way that they 'see them' sometimes.

That being said...you mentioned that Jordan and Egypt attacked Israel in 1967 and lost....Are we talking 6 day war here..because didn't Israel actually start that with a 'pre-emptive' strike after much political upheaval in the region...that included Russia misinforming Syria of an imminent attack causing Syrian and Egyptian troups to come up to the Syrian Peninsula?

Maybe we can blame the former Soviet Union

Technically, though, you are right that Israel emerged then as a military force to be reckoned with....but...they set up a separate military administration to 'govern' palestinians living in those territories and then denied the palestinians many basic civil rights including: freedom of expression, freedom of the press and freedom of political association. Palestinians were closely regulated then and regular curfews, school closings, road closings/blockades etc were instituted. Political activists were deported, and hundreds of thousands of people were imprisoned without trial...torture is commonplace too.

Also...not every 'settlement' was a legal deal...several have violated the 4th Geneva convention. They get around this by saying that palestine was never 'really' a state anyway.

Sure, much of the land was uninhabited, but...some estimates have the number of displaced palestinians in 1948 as high as 750,000. They left out of fear and coersion.

Just my little burst of sunshine for the day...argue on! :>

[Rapunzel]

My bad on the countryside thing, Fluffhead. Just going off of pictures I've seen mostly. Of course, when I tell people I'm from Texas around here they all seem to picture six foot cacti and tumbleweeds in a sandy desert with the Wily Coyote or something.

I agree with Fluffhead's take on the historical context.

The Palestinians have been closely regulated because they are overwhelmingly supportive of violent terrorism. In addition to that they are governed (at least in one of their settlements) by Jordanian law that legalizes murder of women for "honor". Not the most civilized bunch of people. Yassar Arafat was their leader - and much of the world seems to have forgotten his role as a leader of Black September (the terrorist organization responsible for things such as the killings of Israel's Olympic team members in Munich) among other terrorist activities with which he was heavily involved.

Not to mention the fact that the few Arabs actually in the area of modern Israel were ideological and political partners with Adolf Hitler. Jews lived in the land that is now Israel prior to the British Mandate and were massacred by Arabs living in the region prior to the present conflict:

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandat ... _mufti.php

The appointment of the young al-Husseini as Mufti was a seminal event. Prior to his rise to power, there were active Arab factions supporting cooperative development of Palestine involving Arabs and Jews. But al-Husseini would have none of that; he was devoted to driving Jews out of Palestine, without compromise, even if it set back the Arabs 1000 years.

Al-Husseini represented newly emerging proponents of militant, Palestinian Arab nationalism, a previously unknown concept. Once he was in power, he began a campaign of terror and intimidation against anyone opposed to his rule and policies. He killed Jews at every opportunity, but also eliminated Arabs who did not support his campaign of violence. Husseini was not willing to negotiate or make any kind of compromise for the sake of peace.

As a young man, al-Husseini worked with a native Jew, Abbady, who documented this comment:

Remember, Abbady, this was and will remain an Arab land. We do not mind you natives of the country, but those alien invaders, the Zionists, will be massacred to the last man. We want no progress, no prosperity. Nothing but the sword will decide the fate of this country.
In 1929, major Arab riots were instigated against the Jews of Palestine. They began when al-Husseini falsely accused Jews of defiling and endangering local mosques, including al-Aqsa. The call went out to the Arab masses: "Izbah Al-Yahud!" — "Slaughter the Jews!" After the killing of Jews in Hebron, the Mufti disseminated photographs of slaughtered Jews with the claim that the dead were Arabs killed by Jews.

In April, 1936 six prominent Arab leaders formed the Arab Higher Committee, with the Grand Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini as head of the organization, joining forces to protest British support of Zionist progress in Palestine. In the same month, riots broke out in Jaffa commencing a three-year period of violence and civil strife in Palestine that is known as the Arab Revolt. The Arab Higher Committee led the campaign of terrorism against Jewish and British targets.

Using the turmoil of the Arab Revolt as cover, al-Husseini consolidated his control over the Palestinian Arabs with a campaign of murder against Jews and non-compliant Arabs, the recruitment of armed militias, and the raising of funds from around the Muslim world using anti-Jewish propaganda. In 1937 the Grand Mufti expressed his solidarity with Germany, asking the Nazi Third Reich to oppose establishment of a Jewish state, stop Jewish immigration to Palestine, and provide arms to the Arab population. Following an assassination attempt on the British Inspector-General of the Palestine Police Force and the murder by Arab extremists of Jews and moderate Arabs, the Arab Higher Committee was declared illegal by the British. The Grand Mufti lost his office of President of the Supreme muslim Council, his membership on the Waqf committee, and was forced into exile in Syria in 1937. The British deported the Arab mayor of Jerusalem along with other members of the Arab Higher Committee.

According to documentation from the Nuremberg and Eichmann trials, the Nazi Germany SS helped finance al-Husseini's efforts in the 1936-39 revolt in Palestine. Adolf Eichmann actually visited Palestine and met with al-Husseini at that time and subsequently maintained regular contact with him later in Berlin.

In 1940, al-Husseini requested the Axis powers to acknowledge the Arab right:

... to settle the question of Jewish elements in Palestine and other Arab countries in accordance with the national and racial interests of the Arabs and along the lines similar to those used to solve the Jewish question in Germany and Italy.
While in Baghdad, Syria al-Husseini aided the pro-Nazi revolt of 1941. He then spent the rest of World War II as Hitler's special guest in Berlin, advocating the extermination of Jews in radio broadcasts back to the Middle East and recruiting Balkan Muslims for infamous SS "mountain divisions" that tried to wipe out Jewish communities throughout the region.

At the Nuremberg Trials, Eichmann's deputy Dieter Wisliceny (subsequently executed as a war criminal) testified:

The Mufti was one of the initiators of the systematic extermination of European Jewry and had been a collaborator and adviser of Eichmann and Himmler in the execution of this plan. ... He was one of Eichmann's best friends and had constantly incited him to accelerate the extermination measures. I heard him say, accompanied by Eichmann, he had visited incognito the gas chamber of Auschwitz.
With the collapse of Nazi Germany in 1945, the Mufti moved to Egypt where he was received as a national hero. After the war al-Husseini was indicted by Yugoslavia for war crimes, but escaped prosecution. The Mufti was never tried because the Allies were afraid of the storm in the Arab world if the hero of Arab nationalism was treated as a war criminal.

From Egypt al-Husseini was among the sponsors of the 1948 war against the new State of Israel. Spurned by the Jordanian monarch, who gave the position of Grand Mufti of Jerusalem to someone else, Haj Amin al-Husseini arranged King Abdullah's assassination in 1951, while still living in exile in Egypt. King Tallal followed Abdullah as king of Jordan, and he refused to give permission to Amin al-Husseini to come into Jordanian Jerusalem. After one year, King Tallal was declared incompetent; the new King Hussein also refused to give al-Husseini permission to enter Jerusalem. King Hussein recognized that the former Grand Mufti would only stir up trouble and was a danger to peace in the region.

Haj Amin al-Husseini eventually died in exile in 1974. He never returned to Jerusalem after his 1937 departure. His place as leader of the radical, nationalist Palestinian Arabs was taken by his nephew Mohammed Abdel-Raouf Arafat As Qudwa al-Hussaeini, better known as Yasser Arafat. In August 2002, Arafat gave an interview in which he referred to "our hero al-Husseini" as a symbol of Palestinian Arab resistance.

[Rapunzel]

The seeds of the current "Palestinian" conflict are firmly rooted in the anti-semitism that inspired the Third Reich. And, even Yassar Arafat in documented interviews expressed sympathy and agreement with the losing side of WWII.
You have one of the people who ran for office in the "Palestinian Authority" recently quoted in the media as aspiring to be another Adolph Hitler. And, he was quite popular. This isn't a group with "nice" or civilized motives here.