Palestine...

[PrincessFiona]

Holy Balls...what were the people thinking voting in Hamas?????

What do you think of Bush's stance on not ealing with Palestine politically now? From my perspective (blasted liberal that I am) I think that we have to honor any democratically elected government even if we don't *like* what they stand for. We did, after all, want to spread democracy through the middle east, right? It just really...really stinks that Hamas is going to be leading the ship there.

I still think we'll have to work with them politically.

Things are going to be a mess.

kris

[PrincessFiona]

Woohoo...a disagreeement :>

We can't just ignore Palstine now though...how will that help the Palestine/Israel situation. Part of me believes that the people of Palestine were voting against the ruling party in order to protest the corruption, etc. Hamas isn't purely a terrorist organization either...it started out as a social organization. I do despise what they stand for now though.

I wonder what happens if things in Iraq don't go as we plan with the elected governments? Do we then decide not to recognize them?

:>

[DCJenn]

Think of it this way-

You're Palestinian. You're tired of feeling shat upon (rightfully or not...not my place to decide). You know that the Hamas officials feel the same way. You're tired of being a non-citizen in your own country.

You vote for the group that speaks the loudest.

It's as simple as that. From a US/Western point of view, it may look like they're endorsing violence and mayhem. From their point of view? I think they're just happy to have a strong group to vote for.

and yes, we will have to engage politically with them. Doesn't mean it'll be 'official' but there will be conversations.

Jenn

[Rapunzel]

YAY! Somebody else disagreed for once! I'm so totally not going to say anything after this post and just sit back and enjoy!!!

Any political party that has as one of it's platforms the destruction of another nation, adheres to the legal "right" to honor killings of women, sanctions - nay, celebrates - blowing up women and children (because in Israel they are ALL members of the military or future members - according to Palestinian statements) cannot be regarded as good without serious acrobatics of moral relativism.

Don't wimp out on me, Tara! I'm not saying anything else - but I agree with you.

[PrincessFiona]

YAY! Somebody else disagreed for once! I'm so totally not going to say anything after this post and just sit back and enjoy!!!

And yet...what alternatives did the people really have? They could elect the same corrupt, crap government that didn't ever get control of everything going on or vote for change......

sort of like us.....we could vote for the same crap government that got us into tons of messes or vote for a flip-floppin poop head....we voted to keep the crap govt.... :> ...and there are plenty of governments out there that consider Bush's actions to be very questionable in terms of international law...

Personally, I wish they had kept their crap gov. and I do think we'll need to watch/wait...at the same time....I don't think we'll have much of a choice but to 'deal' with Hamas politically. Though they do have a 'terrorist' portion, they have also acted as a 'social arm' providing welfare, etc to the people...something they desperately need.

I'm not defending them...but we live in a global world...My opinoin is that we have to 'deal' with governments of all sorts whether we like them or not. After all...we 'deal' with China.....we actually do fabulous business with them despite their human rights violations, etc....and despite our pretend role as arbiters of peace between Israel and Palestine, we have given Israel millions and millions of dollars more than Palestine as well as weapons, tanks, planes, etc....then we sit down at the table and pretend to talk peace.

I kind of fall in the middle of this one (which will surprise some). I agree that we cannot just ignore a democratically elected government. I just picture Bush with his hands on his ears saying "I can't hear you! La la la la la!" (Frighteningly enough - not too hard to imagine). We will HAVE to deal with them. Does that mean we condone what they do? No - but we can't ignore that they're there.

That said - we certainly don't help them, ally with them, enter into treaties with them if they're still assinating people, provide money for them - we won't be friends.

We deal with all sorts of awful governments around the world. China is an obvious one. Governements that are horrendous to their own people -- just not necessarily directing the violence outward. We dealt with Saddam when it was good for us. Bad either way.

[fluffhead]

I've got no problem with the US dealing with Hamas, as long as the US does not object when Israel bombs the hell out of Gaza after the next suicide attack. After all, if Hamas is the legitimate rep. of the "palestinians" then an attack is an act of war by a sovereign nation, and Israel has a right to retaliate, right?
I know I'm gonna regret jumping into this topic.

[DCJenn]

Excellent point, fluff.

Jenn

and you know, to be honest there are lots and lots of horrible dictators and governments- anyone see Parade last weekend?

[samssugarmomma]

I have to say that I acutually agree with Kris on this one (a first! ). We can't go around "spreading democracy"- and then decide to ignore who is elected because we don't think they are the "right" choice. What do we tell the people - "Yes, you had the chance to vote for who you wanted, but you picked the wrong answer. Try again."


That said, the results of the election stink!

I've got no problem with the US dealing with Hamas, as long as the US does not object when Israel bombs the hell out of Gaza after the next suicide attack. After all, if Hamas is the legitimate rep. of the "palestinians" then an attack is an act of war by a sovereign nation, and Israel has a right to retaliate, right?
I know I'm gonna regret jumping into this topic.

I was curious to see where you would fall on this one, since you are usually very liberal and the more "liberal" of the group are tending to say Bush has to accept them.

I do agree with your point about Hamas being the legitimate rep. of the Palestinians, then attacks in the name of Hamas are also on behalf of the government.

All I really know is it's going to get very, very ugly (as though it's ever not been ugly).

[PrincessFiona]

I agree with you too, Fluffhead. The 'good' thing about Hamas coming to power is that now they will have to be responsible for their actions because of the fact that they are the official govt.

kris

[fluffhead]

Perhaps I should explain my position -
I used to be among the believers of the standard "liberal" Amnesty International line - poor Palestinians, noncitizens of any country, rejected by their brothers....(I still believe it was wrong to leave them without a country, and no Israeli PM would take responsibility for solving the problem, but just procrastinated, until Sharon, who unfortunately can't finish the process)
So I tried - I actually was in the West Bank and worked a little with Arabs there, clearing some land for agriculture, doing some water purification work, and planned to write some grants for other work.
Then the second intifada started. I had truly believed that the man on the street was interested in peace and cooperation, and projects were moving along at the ground level. But hamas and hezbollah and PFLP destroyed all that. They took friends of mine out of their car and beat them to a pulp. They killed a soldier who took a wrong turn and threw his body out of a window and then taunted his wife who called his cell phone wondering where he was.
And I still believed that the man on the street wanted peace.
So then they go and vote in hamas by an overwhelming majority.
I say they deserve whatever they get.

And in terms of being "shat on by the Israelis" justifying it - the Israelis have been attacked and bombed by the Arabs for 55 years, and they never gave any kind of significant vote to Meir Kahane, Kach, or any other "extremist" party - in fact they allow Arabs to serve in the Knesset, who routinely side with terrorists and defend terrorist activity. Any kind of gesture from the Israeli side is met by violence and more violence.

End of my diatribe.

[PrincessFiona]

I believe that both sides have behaved badly on many occasions.

[Rapunzel]

I know I promised not to say anything else - but I just read this today and thought it was important given the topic:

Hamas's Charter

"Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious...The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised...

The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the wings of Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine. The Muslim Brotherhood Movement is a universal organization which constitutes the largest Islamic movement in modern times...

It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine, for under the wing of Islam followers of all religions can coexist in security and safety where their lives, possessions and rights are concerned...

The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the links in the chain of the struggle against the Zionist invaders. It goes back to 1939, to the emergence of the martyr Izz al-Din al Kassam and his brethren the fighters, members of Muslim Brotherhood. It goes on to reach out and become one with another chain that includes the struggle of the Palestinians and Muslim Brotherhood in the 1948 war and the Jihad operations of the Muslim Brotherhood in 1968 and after...

The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: 'The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him...'
Resisting and quelling the enemy become the individual duty of every Muslim, male or female. A woman can go out to fight the enemy without her husband's permission, and so does the slave: without his master's permission...

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with...

The day The Palestinian Liberation Organization adopts Islam as its way of life, we will become its soldiers, and fuel for its fire that will burn the enemies...

The Zionist invasion is a vicious invasion... It relies greatly in its infiltration and espionage operations on the secret organizations it gave rise to, such as the Freemasons, The Rotary and Lions clubs, and other sabotage groups. All these organizations, whether secret or open, work in the interest of Zionism and according to its instructions...

We should not forget to remind every Muslim that when the Jews conquered the Holy City in 1967, they stood on the threshold of the Al-Aqsa Mosque and proclaimed that 'Mohammed is dead, and his descendants are all women.'

Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Muslim people. 'May the cowards never sleep.'"

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite? ... 2FShowFull

[Rapunzel]

I'll bet you didn't know the Rotary and Lion's clubs were up to no good, now did you?

And, as a woman I am sooooo glad that the slaves and I get to kill Jews without the permission of my husband/master. Yippee!

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