Palestine...

[Meenah]

I'm with you fluffhead!!
Luanne

If I'm reading these things right, it actually sounds like jloreine, fluffhead, Rapunzel, Momof4, Luanne and I agree (with a little of Kris in there, acknowledging that no side has performed entirely above board).

This is a 1st, and a very strange consensus indeed!

[Vishenka69]

I agree with Fluffhead that judging from over here is very different than judging from the Middle East. Before I went to Israel, I thought that it would be best if they just worked something out among themselves. The problem seemed completely different. After visiting Israel and seeing the conflict up close, my prespective has shifted.

You can reason with logical people who really do want to find a peaceful solution, not with crazy terrorists who think that talking is a waste of time.

[PrincessFiona]

Well, the good news is that now that Hamas has been elected, they will be held accountable in a different way.....I don't think we should immediately strip them of aid, etc...I think we should wait and see if the Hamas leadership will continue along the same lines. If they do, all bets are off...they are now a legitimate government and will be accountable. Maybe Hama's victory will actually end up being a good thing for Israel....if they step out of line, the international committee will remove all aid and help and they'll go down like the titanic......they may just discover that they have to be diplomatic and learn to handle the conflict in a different way. Wouldn't that be interesting.

Of course, it could all go to hell too....which is why my original post was along the lines of "holy balls, what were they thinking!"

kris

[Meenah]

If I'm reading these things right, it actually sounds like jloreine, fluffhead, Rapunzel, Momof4, Luanne and I agree (with a little of Kris in there, acknowledging that no side has performed entirely above board).

This is a 1st, and a very strange consensus indeed!
_________________

Strange bedfellows for the debate forum!!!!!!!
Luanne

[Rapunzel]

Update:

JMCC Poll of Palestinians: 56.2% support suicide bombing operations against Israeli civilians

http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=28550

Q18. How do you feel towards suicide bombing operations against Israeli civilians? Do you support them, or oppose them?

Strongly support 22.4

Somewhat support 33.8

Somewhat oppose 24.3

Strongly oppose 16.4

No answer 3.1

[Meenah]

I hate to read that, it is really just sick (IMO).
Luanne

Still wanting to give the benefit of the doubt I was hoping this was a survey of 100 people at an anti-Israel rally, but according to the poll it was 1200 people over the period of a week.

It's very, very sad that such hatred can be instilled in an entire group of people.

[PrincessFiona]

It is a situation that we really don't understand...we just have the advantage of looking at it as 'armchair politicians' in the US. We don't really understand the nuances of life as either an Israeli or as a Palestinian....I think 1200 people is still a small sample...but it is sad. The poll also says that the 'random sample' was of people living in Gaza and the West Bank.....maybe emotions are more highly charged there? It would be like taking a random poll in TX to find out how many Americans like Bush ... Oh wait..he dropped below 50% in TX too :>

Sorry...couldn't resist...you know how bad I am!

kris

[fluffhead]

If you want a larger poll than n=1200, try the recent election.

[Rapunzel]

Kris, no it would be like taking a random poll in Texas and asking the people polled if they approved of randomly killing Mexicans - men, women, and children. You'll find a couple of whackos in the group who will condone something evil and insane such as that. But, the overwhelming (and, I mean overwhelming as in almost everyone) majority would find such a proposition horrifying.

I think it's a fallacy to say that we cannot understand this situation. Indiscriminantly and purposely blowing up civilians (which includes women and innocent children - babies for goodness' sake) is always, always, always going to be an evil, awful thing.

[Rapunzel]

If you want a larger poll than n=1200, try the recent election.

Good point.

[PrincessFiona]

If you want a larger poll than n=1200, try the recent election.

True...however weren't many of the people that were polled about how they voted willing to admit that they voted to get the corrupt govt. out and not necessarily 'for' Hamas?

[PrincessFiona]

Kris, no it would be like taking a random poll in Texas and asking the people polled if they approved of randomly killing Mexicans - men, women, and children. You'll find a couple of whackos in the group who will condone something evil and insane such as that. But, the overwhelming (and, I mean overwhelming as in almost everyone) majority would find such a proposition horrifying.

I think it's a fallacy to say that we cannot understand this situation. Indiscriminantly and purposely blowing up civilians (which includes women and innocent children - babies for goodness' sake) is always, always, always going to be an evil, awful thing.

I agree. I'm not trying to say that this hatred doesn't exist...especially in Gaza and the West Bank....I am not condoning this hatred of the jewish-israelis but I do think that we aren't comparing Texas to Palestine either. The situation is very complicated and I think many of those who were displaced or whose families were displaced harbor a deep hatred/resentment for the Israeli people. Whether or not that is justified, I don't know. I'm sure the pro-Israeli's would scream "hell no" and the palestinian supports would yell just as loud "YES".

None of us has lived under the conditions of the Palestinans in the Gaza and West Bank to be able to understand the problems...nor have we lived in Israel. My point is that we're judging it based on what we hear on CNN, FoxNews, MSNBC, BBC, etc.

I have no doubt that people who have lost homes or family members feel hatred. That doesn't justify murdering innocent civilians...but these people don't have weapons to fight back either. Again...I'm not condoning the behavior...evil, evil and awful mean different things in different cultures with different religious and moral beliefs, too. There are places where people are hanged for having marijuana, stoned to death for being unfaithful in their marriage, or have their limbs cut off if they steal. To me, that is evil and awful too. We can't judge another country with our own moral standards, unfortunately...I sure wouldn't want them judging us with their standards.

That, of course, is also another reason why I didn't support the whole Iraq bs from the start. But I won't go off on a tangent about that or the thousands and thousands of innocent civilians who have 'evily' been killed by 'accident'.

We have provided Israel with planes, tanks etc...and Palestine doesn't have those...their weapon of choice is unfortunately, suicide bombings...and I don't agree with that. Nor do I agree with the Israeli's slowly encroaching on their land. I really supported Sharon for pulling out of some of the settlements in an effort to create peace.

It will be interesting to see what happens, but I'm of the opinion that we need to let these two countries 'work it out' themselves...or kill themselves off trying. I'm sorry to be so mean about it, but we have invested plenty of money and time with no results. Now it's tough love time....they need to figure out how to fix it themselves.

kris

[Rapunzel]

I know I brought it up years ago, but there IS a comparable situation that happened in the U.S. - it was what the U.S. government and the local populations did to tens of thousands of members of my church in the 1800s including murder (mass murder and individual murders), rapes, pillaging, outright theft of almost all our properties as well as the "Extermination Order" in Missouri (that allowed any Missouri citizen to KILL ON SIGHT a "Mormon" ) which was only rescinded in the 1970s!

My "people" did NOT react violently. Rather, they turned the other cheek and moved on, literally, becoming the largest migration of people in modern history when they went (mostly on foot) into the Rocky mountains with the U.S. army practically at their heels.

Knowing this history (which, btw is NOT covered in most public school history courses) I do know of something to which I can compare the modern Palestinian craziness. And, I also know - KNOW - that the way the Palestinians are acting (and are encouraged to act by their Arab "brothers" in other nations) is abhorrent and certainly NOT the only solution. Granted, to hate and kill innocents is probably the easiest solution, but it's not the only one and certainly not the best one.