Palestine...

[PrincessFiona]

The Mormons embrace a religion of peace and love towards fellow man, though, Jenn. As far as I know, Palestine is a 98% Muslim society...and speaking of which....those Muslims living in the Gaza/West Bank (occupied territories) regions that were polled are also Sunni's (not necessarily mainstream).

I'm just providing context.

[Rapunzel]

Well, yeah, but isn't Islam also a "religion of peace"?

I know that Tara actually confronted this issue head-on in another thread, and I generally do NOT like to debate religion (because it just gets you nowhere really). But, is this about religion, culture, a combination of both, or what? I have my own ideas and opinions forming but I don't know that this is an appropriate place to relate them....

Oh, yeah, I'm going to put this on every thread now because it gives me the giggles:

THE END IS NEAR!!

[fluffhead]

gee, how can an observer of mideast politics say "I told you so" without sounding insincere?

To think that Arafat's party has become the "moderate" in all this...
If anybody had told me that the PLO was gonna be the good guys, I'd say "imagine what the bad guys must be like".....
well they put the bad guys in office, and it's not like they were ever hiding their true colors. So there you have it.

(eta - reading this post, I realized that people could be looking at the USA saying the same thing - "they elected this govt, and now they're reaping the rewards...serves them right"....so I should point out that I recognize that not 100% of the residents of the gaza strip voted for hamas, and that there are horrible sad stories about innocent peace-loving civilians losing their children and their homes)

[DCJenn]

I can't think of one mainstream religion that isn't Peace loving.

and let's go no further than Ireland to see what religious intolerance can do. And honestly, what is termed religious issues normally stems from one group of people encroaching on another group of people, usually based on land rights. The Brits were horrible to the Irish.

If I were in Northern Ireland, where my family is from, could I be friends w/ all of the Catholics that I know and love? Could Jane and I have a civil conversation? Would they want to be friends with me?

If you remove the situation from the Middle East and put it anywhere else in the world, it's the same situation:

the former Yugoslavia, Indonesia, Quebec-

Jenn

And honestly, what is termed religious issues normally stems from one group of people encroaching on another group of people, usually based on land rights.

Exactly. "Religious issues" is just a socially acceptable way of saying "economic issues". Greed is not politically correct, but doing something in the name of God is okay.

[Rapunzel]

That gets into a chicken and the egg argument, really.

The fact is that ideology DOES play an important role in many conflicts.

The Cold War, WWII, the U.S. Civil War - all could be argued to be about nuts and bolts issues such as economics, etc. However, ideology played a large part in all cases as well. So, was it ideology driving the machines of war - or was it the dull but important subjectmatter such as economics?

Examining the situation in Northern Ireland - you once again have two seperate agendas going on - ideology (ie religion) and empire expansion. Which one began the first? Which was the excuse for the underlying reasoning of the other? Which drove the emotions and which any calculated planning?

It IS complicated. But, ideology is an important component of every major conflict that I can think of in modern times (ie Civil War onward). And, this does include religious ideology.

People are motivated by a number of negatives: greed, hatred, fanatacism, revenge, superiority, etc. Greed is most definitely not the only factor in any major conflict and only examining that one single aspect ignores the many other facets that cause war, death, and destruction.

[PrincessFiona]

It isn't really shocking....when you lay down with dangerous snakes, you're likely to get a nasty bite. (We learned that with bin Laden though....)

It's quite sad for both Palestine and Israel and I'm sure that it will ignite more violence in the middle east.

:huh:

kris

That gets into a chicken and the egg argument, really.

The fact is that ideology DOES play an important role in many conflicts.

Hmmm... I still disagree. Maybe I am a cynic, but I still believe that economics was the driving force in all your examples. I will make this short since it is late in the evening, however if I am wrong in my ascertations, please somebody correct me.

The Cold War, the Cold War may have been on the surface a war of ideology, but the crux of it was Capitalism vs. the Collective movement, which sounds like it was based on economics to me

WWII Yes, the war was one of ideology, but the Nazi aggressivism was rooted in economic issues. Germany was in a state of disrepair after WWI, and were at the mercy of foreign governments due to loans that they could not repay.

U.S. Civil War Again, I guess from the North's POV this could be ideological, but the impetus for the war was the South's secession, and that was purely for economic reasons- wanting a free labor force.

- all could be argued to be about nuts and bolts issues such as economics, etc. However, ideology played a large part in all cases as well. So, was it ideology driving the machines of war - or was it the dull but important subjectmatter such as economics?

Just personal opinion- I don't find economics dull- except for Econometrics- I'll give you that- it takes dull to whole new levels!

Examining the situation in Northern Ireland - you once again have two seperate agendas going on - ideology (ie religion) and empire expansion. Which one began the first? I thought the British expansion came first. I don't even consider this to be a conflict of religion (ideology), I see it more as a land grab of a Catholic nation by a nation that happens to be Protestant. To me this is purely about self-preservation. When I say self-preservation, I mean retaining rights to the land so that one may cultivate it in a means that one sees fit- which to me is economics, again.

Which was the excuse for the underlying reasoning of the other? Which drove the emotions and which any calculated planning?

It IS complicated. But, ideology is an important component of every major conflict that I can think of in modern times (ie Civil War onward). And, this does include religious ideology.

I don't disagree in that ideology is a component, but I think economics DRIVES ideology. Sure the Spanish missionaries pretty much enslaved the natives (Aztecs, Incans, Coahuiltecans, etc) "for their own good" to teach them ideology/religion. But the missionaries didn't mind taking their land and gold. I believe too many governments/organisations/religious groups hide behind "ideology" and use it as a way to rationalize their economic benefits.

People are motivated by a number of negatives: greed, hatred, fanatacism, revenge, superiority, etc. Greed is most definitely not the only factor in any major conflict and only examining that one single aspect ignores the many other facets that cause war, death, and destruction.

I agree that people are motivated by the forces you described above, however, I think the underlying cause in MANY cases, where a group HIDES behind the mask of ideology, is "greed"- really, self-preservation. Sure, not ALL cases, but I think a good many conflicts arise because of the basic human instinct to survive.