What's wrong with a touch of democratic socialism?

[PrincessFiona]

Oh please don't let the government run my healthcare!! And we do have a safety net for the unemployed. It's called unemployment, it may not always be effective but that is because it is a government run program. I don't want the goverment to take care of me that is not its job. Do you see socialism working anywhere? The European economy is in the toilet. Their taxes are so high that they cannot typically afford to have more than one child, if that. That great socialist heathcare has them paying for their aging population through the nose. I am all for helping those in need, but need must be the key issue. Start raising taxes like these types of programs would require and this country would be hit by the largest economic downfall since the depression. We are a willing and able nation that needs less government involvement not more.

Tara

Please let the govt run some kind of healthcare for people who are not fortunate enough to have health insurance despite being hardworking, upstanding members of society...and provide the opportunity for all americans to continue to purchase their private plans. Certainly, having the security of 'just' basic govt. health insurance if you are in a lower income job (for example) is better than having nothing. In the case of a catastrophic illness, people w/o insurance are ruined.

The American economy isn't doing so great for a large portion of Americans either...it's all about how it's twisted, spun, etc. Having lived in Europe for years, I can say that the positives outweighted the negatives in many ways.

Wait until you pay 50% of your income in taxes/social security and start saying "wow...what do I have for this?"..a war in Iraq? No free/subsidized university education? No options for a safety net for health insurance/unemployment? A bridge in Alaska? WHAT! I don't mind paying my share, but....enough is enough alread.

We don't pay any less right now than we would if we lived back in Germany...what a disappointment. It's an illusion to believe that we aren't paying for these things already.

MN has a state tax that provides for health insurance for the uninsured. We have one of the highest rates of insured out of the 50 states....and consequently can boast one of the lowest medical costs in the 50 states. TX, for example, has one of the highest numbers of uninsured and the highest health care costs.....because the insured pay for the uninsured.

It's about prioritites.

I can't support offshoring companies, bailing out airlines again and again, etc etc...and not helping the hard working people that make this great country what it is.

A friend of ours here (with an engineering degree, btw) just lost his job. He has 3 small children and a wife and they had just moved into a new house. He had worked for this company for 16 years.....but the company is now outsourcing and downsizing. He was given his pink slip with no notice at all after having invested quite a bit in the company. Now, he is applying nationwide and is having little luck....don't think that the unemployment office/benefits are a help to him at all.

aaaah...my morning rant! I love discussing with you, momof4.

kris

[PrincessFiona]

Europeans don't tend to have more than one child for other reasons, btw...which are complicated and are related to childcare, career, etc. German women in my mil's generation were raised to actually attend a special technical college to get a degree in housewifery...and not to have careers.....the changes are coming slowly there and many women find that there is inadequate childcare and that after studying for so long they are unwilling to take the breaks etcin their careers. There are other cultural issues at play.

[PrincessFiona]

One can always pretend that we are taxed at European rates and donate the difference to the favorite charity/shelter/school/etc. What will be the incentive to work or do anything if the goverment can always step in and help out. People need to be held accountable for their choices. There's plenty of opportunity for everyone to better themselves regardless of their ethnic, religious or socioeconomic status. Like Tara, I'd prefer even less government involvement if possible.

Wait until the attending paychecks start rolling in You may start to think differently about how high we are taxed.

There are always going to be parasites in society, but interestingly, many people really want to work and be productive.

When I was insured (govt health insurance) in germany, it wasn't a free ride. The money was automatically deducted from each paycheck and it wasn't my choice. My employer paid a part as did I. DH had private insurance and it pretty much worked the same way.

At the end of the day, I got same-day appointments, ultrasounds, etc. The difference? He would have gotten a single room in the hospital and would have been seen by the chief of the dept....I shared a room with several other women after giving birth....it beats not having insurance at all. I got good care.

[PrincessFiona]

Finally...I am not aruging for pure socialism...I'm arguing for us to take up some socialist ideals...ie healthcare, a better social net, etc....

Hey...if not...I say we drop all corporate welfare and production of big pharma etc...let the actual free market prevail then...the airlines go down...they go down...tough balls for them...people start buying their drugs from europe and Canada...so be it.

I'm sick of supporting big coporations and making lame excuses for them and of blaming the hardworking americans in this country for not being 'enough' if they are bankrupted by healthcare costs etc.

kris

[Vishenka69]

Kris, not everything is black and white. When I was on unemployment, the checks covered our rent and utilities. Not bad, considering NYC rents. There's Medicare and Medicaid for the poor plus many states (I know NY is one of them) have their own programs for those who don't qualify for the federal ones. On top of that, ER has to treat everyone insurance or no insurance. In NYC ER's in hospitals closest to airports are flooded with people flying in for free medical care. Guess who's paying for that? I'm also fully aware that we'll be taxed through the roof after residency, living in NYC we already are paying some of the highest taxes in the country. But even with AMT our rate will never be 90%.

[mommax3]

I am late chiming in on this but I just wanted to point something out about the tax breakdown.....

Of the $100.00 you paid in taxes:
$29.97 goes to the military
$18.60 goes to pay the interest on the debt
$20.27 goes to health care
$6.58 goes to income security
$3.67 goes to education
$3.44 goes to benefits for veterans
$2.69 goes to nutrition spending
$2.14 goes to housing
$1.72 goes to environmental protection
$0.94 goes to job training
$10.51 goes to all other expenses

Please keep in mind that the military number doesn't just reflect guns, tanks, and ammo. It also encompasses the salaries of all of our armed forces and the costs of their medical care, so of course it will be the largest number. And trust me, none of these folks are getting rich off the gov't.

I don't want the gov't. managing my healthcare, either......I just got through with eight years of that, thankyouverymuch. It is definitely not an efficient model.....but there needs to be a better solution than what currently exists.

My "socialism" is Robin Hood-esque in nature in that I would just like the very richest Americans AND corporations have to contribute to the greater good by either choosing their own way of giving back (and proving they have done so) OR by ponying up the dough and letting the gov't choose for them.

The big news here in Indianapolis is that some local guy (last name is Lucas) who has made millions with his oil company has purchased the right to name the new Colts stadium. The guy is truly a self-made man, and I am happy he has done well, but the way he is spending his money makes me almost physically ill. Why not make a donation of the same amount to the school system in the county where he grew up, or fund a scholarship for kids like himself? Or what about establishing an endowment to fund medical care? What good does it do to get your name on a freaking football stadium? It is just fancy advertising for a guy who is already doing quite well.

Basically, I think we need more of a mechanism in place to *force* people to do the right thing.

Sally

[SueC]

My "socialism" is Robin Hood-esque in nature in that I would just like the very richest Americans AND corporations have to contribute to the greater good by either choosing their own way of giving back (and proving they have done so) OR by ponying up the dough and letting the gov't choose for them.

My thoughts exactly Sally. I obviously don't want the government running every aspect of our lives, but I wish those with the majority of the resources had a little more of a conscious when it comes to giving back. I think it's unfortunate that the people who make a career out of helping the less fortunate are at the bottom of the payscale. It bothers me that big companies are paying big bucks lobbying for things that aren't in the benefit of the greater good, but only serving to line their own pockets.
And I agree with Kris in regards to Healthcare, too many people are left without healthcare and all it takes is one catastrophic event to bankrupt a family. I don't have the statistic handy, but isn't that the single largest cause of bankruptcy being filed?
It's easy to sit back and say that in a capitalistic society, everybody has a chance to achieve the American dream and those those who work hard will be rewarded. But I think that is just a cop out that people use so that they can ignore the problems that a lot of people here are facing.

[PrincessFiona]

PS: I would take a flat tax any day over this system we have going now. You want to be fair, tax everyone at the same rate.

I agree!

[PrincessFiona]

It's easy to sit back and say that in a capitalistic society, everybody has a chance to achieve the American dream and those those who work hard will be rewarded. But I think that is just a cop out that people use so that they can ignore the problems that a lot of people here are facing.

See, Sue...I have a problem with this too. We've seen too many people who have done "all of the right things" end up screwed to believe that people just need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps....Too many retirees are losing their entire pensions after busting their behinds for years...too many students are taking out tens of thousands of dollars in student loans only to get jobs that provide inadequate healthcare benefits and salaries that don't pay the college loans and offer any real standard of living.

And let's face it. Not everyone is going to go to college or a trade school for a vareity of reasons...and some of them are based on ability (not all, of course) and others may fall victim to social issues....Children raised in poor homes that go to horribly underperforming schools will not get a basic education no matter how much we want to fool ouselves into believing that they can 'catch up' with some extra help in college or whatever. Without a good education to use as a stepping stone to a solid college educaton/career, many of these people are simply doomed to fall victim, actually, to capitalism.

We could say that everyone has a 'chance' if the playing field was equalled out a little bit...ie if all elementary and high schools were held to the exact same standards throughout the nation and monies were divided equally within districts.

Our school has money coming out of it's ears (and they still complain, of course)...the neighboring district has had to close several elementary schools...class sizes are now 8 kids higher than in my children's classes.

The result? More people want to move here, home prices go up, both parents must work full-time to afford to live here unless they're lucky like we are...and then they're trapped....two incomes required, less time for kids, two-parent income trap, etc.

It's just not black/white.

[mommax3]

PS: I would take a flat tax any day over this system we have going now. You want to be fair, tax everyone at the same rate.

I agree with this, too!

Sally