Immigration reform

[mommax3]

Anybody have any thoughts or strong feelings?

I tend to agree with some kind of guest worker program.......I am still forming an opinion on this, and the debates here usually help me clarify my thoughts.....so let's discuss!

Sally

I have to say I can really see both sides of this. I do not like the idea of amnesty -- that just says "if you can hide the fact that you broke the law long enough, then you'll get away with it".

I'm married to an immigrant, but I have no idea how hard it is to get here. I guess I assumed it was pretty easy, because ALL of dh's family is here, and b/c I have several friends who are immigrants. The other day I made a comment to that effect and he snapped my head off.

I guess I'll see what comes out here, and base my decision from there.

[Rapunzel]

I have some relatives by marriage that were illegal immigrants - I also have a number of them that were perfectly legal when they immigrated (including the most recently married-in relative - my new sister-in-law from the Yucatan).

This is a very complex issue and basically boils down to Mexico's predominantly European, white ruling class (oh yes, there IS a ruling class there) trying to pass off their "dirty little problem" to the United States.

That's all I'll say for the moment - but it has waaaay more to do with the incompetancy and corruption of the Mexican government and outright racism rampant in Mexico than anything else.

[SueC]

I think it's gotten harder over the last few decades, but I know my dh didn't actually become a naturalized citizen until he was 17 (14 years after he got here). I had a babysitter over the last few years from Eastern Europe that has a hell of a time on a regular basis getting the appropriate visas and such so that she can work and attend school. I don't think it's a simple process.
As far as Mexico, I do like the idea of a guest worker program and I do not like the idea of building a big fence to keep them out. I tend to be a bleeding heart across the boards, and feel a lot of sympathy for those that manage to get over here and then work their butts off for peanuts while having no protection in regards to benefits, worker's comp, etc. I know it drains our system to have them over here, but we also depend on their cheap labor. I wish there was a fair solution.

See -- with this one my bleeding heart gets squished from both sides. Sue is right: they work their tails off for peanuts, do things most of us would consider "beneath" us, have no "real" protections .... but ....

They pay no taxes, they use our healthcare system on our dime, we provide interpreters so they can understand which of our benefits they can use on our dime, we pay to educate their children - often requiring bilingual services at the schools as well, they drive uninsured so we absorb those costs as well .... it's a real conundrum. I heard once that CA has it's various forms printed in an obscene number of languages (upwards of 30 I think) so that everyone can understand. I know all that take advantage of that service are not illegal, but I pretty much believe that if you choose to move here, you should learn enough English to work through government forms.

If we have a "guest worker" program, what is to say they'll go back? I don't think they would. Is the answer to open up more spaces for legal immigration? I don't think people should be turned away, per se ... I really don't know what to do.

[HeartRN]

They pay no taxes, they use our healthcare system on our dime,.

This is what I personally have the hardest time with....I work with transplant patients who were born and bred in the USA and I have to FIGHT for them to get immunosuppressive medication, upon which their life depends. It's just....absurd, for lack of a better word that others (ie immigrants ) get primary medical assistance without a struggle.

However, I also have a patient who was a heart-lung recipient, and he is becoming a citizen later this month (he's from Mexico, I believe). He is one of my favorite patients--a stand-up guy who is warm, grateful, hardworking, and has tremendous love for this country because his life was saved here; he WANTS to give back.

I'm really torn...I firmly believe we need to be selective regarding who comes here, but I have no idea how to do this.

However, I also have a patient who was a heart-lung recipient, and he is becoming a citizen later this month (he's from Mexico, I believe). He is one of my favorite patients--a stand-up guy who is warm, grateful, hardworking, and has tremendous love for this country because his life was saved here; he WANTS to give back.

If he's becoming a citizen later this month, that means he's been here legally for quite some time. I have no issues with legal immigration. People here on work visas or with green cards DO pay taxes and help to support the system.

[Rapunzel]

The irony is that people who come to the United States illegaly are like a slap in the face to the ones who do what is necessary to be legal immigrants. It IS darned hard to become a citizen of the US (my mil is so very proud of the fact that she became a citizen on her OWN - not through marriage to my deceased fil - that is a HUGE thing). But, the process ensures we have people emigrating who are very serious about doing so AND respect our laws - even the stupid ones. Respect for law is paramount to a functioning society. Without it we have, well, anarchy.

And, anarchy is precisely what makes up much of Mexico. Do I feel for these people who risk death to come to the US, albeit illegally? Heck yeah! Their country is a crap hole compared to even the poorest situation here across the border. Their own army smuggles drugs into the United States, organized crime controls much of the country, and the whiter you are, the higher up the social ladder you go (awful, awful reality). The people who come here illegally are overwhelmingly Mestizos who are treated like little more than dogs by the ruling classes.

Now.... There are things that go hand-in-hand with this flagrant breaking of American law: The smuggling of drugs along with people (by the Mexican government in some cases), the illegal entry of those who WOULD and WILL do Americans harm (ie the recent spike in illegal immigration from nations known for sending us terrorists), and a general distain for other laws (if you're going to break one - and a big one at that - why stop there?).

I also notice that the organizers behind these rallies trying to justify the flagrant breaking of laws are people with little to no respect for the United States. Notice the prominent place the communist party (which we would think would be a dead entity by this point in time given communism's track record) and it's offshoots have in the organization of these demonstrations. Notice the prominence of the organization openly calling for the "removal of all Europeans" from the United States so "they can get their homeland back" (completely ignoring history as well as the fact that just about every illegal immigrant from south of the border is, to some extent, European as well ). The other entity behind this rising tide of support for breaking the laws of the land is.... the Mexican government itself. Why would the Mexican government - supposedly a close "ally" - be for such a destructive activity? Mexico has major issues socially and financially. These are issues that it COULD solve - but it would require removing the class system in the country along with actually enforcing laws among other things. Instead, the Mexican leaders take the most corrupt way out as possible (big surprise): Encouraging people to cross the United States border illegaly to receive social services here and send money back home to fund the Mexican economy. This also accomplishes the Mexican government's side activities of encouraging the drug trade (lucrative profits for Mexican government officials via bribery or more direct means).

This illegal immigration is NOT good for Americans OR Mexicans. It prolongs and complicates the problems for the average Mexican citizen. It does NOT help the United States' economically. It DOES take away real jobs from real Americans. It IS a huge - HUGE drain on the average American's finances (via higher taxes to pay for social services). Arguing that this illegal underclass are integral to the American economy and way of life is arguing that a form of slavery is necessary for our way of life - because that is what we currently have.

I am very passionate on this issue because it directly affects people I love. I grew up in an area of the nation that was quickly becoming more than 50% hispanic and many of my closest friends were and are immigrants. Additionally, my passion is fueled by the detriment I see of the current policies and actions towards my own nation and people that I deeply love.

So.... Immigration is good. Very good, in fact. Halting immigration entirely is insane - and I have yet to hear anyone argue for such an awful idea. However, encouraging any illegal activity is equally insane. We need to go to the source of the encouragement of this activity: 1) Pull out of the NAFTA treaty that allows such a porous flow over the border - this would also cause the corrupt Mexican government to sit up and take notice that the United States recognizes the Mexican government as a major source of this illegal activity, 2) Build walls in strategic locations across the border (if anything, to prevent the Mexican military from any more blatant drug running) and encourage the Minute Man movement that allows individuals to defend their land and resources, 3) Change the laws so that the children born to a citizen of another nation here criminally are NOT considered US citizens and are NOT entitled to social welfare here (immediately removes much of the incentive for many illegal immigrants to flagrantly break our laws) - Note that we should still definitely allow the children of all LEGAL citizens obvious status as citizens themselves - that's a given, 4) Harshly fine AND imprison business owners/operators that recruit and use this glorified slave labor, 5) Pass laws that make it a criminal act to call for the destruction of the United States (an act of war if from a foreign national and an act of treason if from a US citizen).

We need deterents on multiple levels - physical, financial, and social deterents. That is the only way to stem this awful, awful situation.

[PrincessFiona]

I have no bleeding heart left....I think immigration needs to be controlled regarldess of who is coming in...this is a differnt day and time from when our country was being "founded". We simply use mexican workers to do the "low-income", physical labor jobs (for the most part) and we allow companies to currently do that illegally.

DH had to take an HIV test, get a TB test, pass an interview AND we had to have a notarized paper where both he and I swore that he was indeed the father of our firstborn...we had to be interviewed to make sure that our marriage was legit...blah, blah, blah....We had to pay to go out to these interviews and for hotel stays etc...

And then...someone from Mexico (for example) can sneak into the country and get 'amnesty' because they happen to pick tomatoes and no american wants that dirty job?

Mexico needs to start fixing some of her own problems. We also are currently NOT taking in educated Mexicans right now, btw....the majority of the illegal immigrants don't have the educational background to rise beyond picking fruit/working in meat-packing plants under undesirable circumstances...They will forever be 'slaves' to the American industry...

This will sound tacky, but I think that if we are looking at importing workers in this day and age, we need to be looking harder at giving more 'friendly' visa's to the scientists etc among us as well. Here we are letting in our neighbors from down south to do our dirty work, but most of the scientists that I met in the labs were on very limited Visas....

That's the best that I can do right now at formulating a coherent thought.

kris

[Meenah]

Kris, it was entirely coherent for me!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have avoided this topic for various reasons, but must admit I agree with you.

[Rapunzel]

Another problem with the overwhelming illegal immigration?

TB

According to one Wall Street Journal piece illegal immigrants with tuberculosis (active, mind you) are working in restaraunts of all places. Pass the salad!

Here's an interesting article in relation to the growing TB problem:

http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns ... 15730.html

If anyone needs another reason to oppose illegal immigration, to which the Bush Administration continues to turn a blind eye, how about the spread of a deadly communicable disease?

According to an essay in the current issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association, a form of tuberculosis that has shown itself resistant to several drugs has invaded California and is present primarily in the state's "foreign-born" population, a politically correct euphemism for illegal aliens.

Dr. Reuben Granich, a lead investigator for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), writes that treatment for multidrug-resistant TB, called MDR-TB, is expensive, costing between $200,000 and $1.2 million per person over a period of 18 to 24 months.

The CDC's Web page says TB was in decline in the United States, but that it increased between 1985 and 1992. Nearly 15,000 cases of TB were diagnosed last year, with California reporting the largest number of cases. Although the total number of TB cases has declined in recent years, the study says the drug-resistant cases "did not significantly change over the study period," causing concern among medical professionals.

The official administration position is that America welcomes the "foreign born" into this country, even those who have broken our laws to get here. We give their children free education supplied by law-abiding taxpayers and we give them free medical care at our hospitals, which is subsidized by legal residents through rising prices for health insurance and increased hospital costs (or the closing of hospitals, as is occurring in California).

Granich, who works for a federal agency and might be expected not to disagree with the Bush Administration's line on illegal immigrants, cannot tiptoe around the obvious. He writes that those illegals found to have drug-resistant TB were mostly (84 percent) "foreign born" and were twice as likely to transmit the disease to others.

The study did not characterize the "foreign born" patients as illegal aliens, but what other conclusion is to be reached when the study specifies that most of them came from Mexico or the Philippines and were in the U.S. less than five years when their infection was discovered?

In 1993, 29 percent of TB cases in the U.S. were diagnosed among the "foreign born." Last year that figure had risen to 53 percent. The disease isn't coming by wire transfer, but by human carriers coming across our borders.

Granich says the presence of this highly communicable disease, which is transmitted through the air mainly by coughing and sneezing, does not warrant the closing of the borders.

If the threat of terrorism and a contagious disease like TB is not sufficient to get the government to stop harassing native-born Americans at airports and begin concentrating on shutting down the flow of illegal aliens across our borders, what is?

Do politicians so crave the votes of people who break our laws and the approval of Mexican President Vicente Fox that they are willing to jeopardize the health and welfare of the legally residing citizens of this country?

More of us seem interested in seeing that the laws are obeyed, even if government officials who are sworn to enforce them will not. In addition to the recent efforts by members of the "Minutemen Project," who stationed themselves along the Arizona-Mexico border and reduced the flow of illegals to a trickle, the police chief of New Ipswich, N.H., has come up with a novel idea.

W. Garrett Chamberlain, 36, is arresting illegal Mexican aliens on charges of trespassing. Chamberlain told The Washington Post, "I'm just saying: 'Wait a minute. We're on heightened alert and it's post-9/11, and I'm going to let an illegal immigrant who I don't know from Adam just walk away? . If I find you are in my country illegally, I'm not going to worry about political correctness. I will detain you."

Let's put Chief Chamberlain in charge of the Department of Homeland Security.

[HeartRN]

What Kris said....

[MissCrabette]

The irony is that people who come to the United States illegaly are like a slap in the face to the ones who do what is necessary to be legal immigrants.

I also completely agree with what jesher, Tara, and kris have said. I am an immigrant myself and I came here legally so it's very insulting when Mexicans feel they are somehow above the law. My mom and I have filed a what feels like tons of papers, had medical tests done before we even got a visa, we paid thousands of dollars in fees, we had several interviews, and we are still only conditional permanent residents.

Don't even get me started on amnesty. If these people cannot respect the US laws when coming into the country, who's to say they will be law abiding citizens afterwards? As for the guest worker program, that will also be a failure because the US doesn't seem to keep track of the people coming into the country and send them back to their home countries when their visas expire. I know that for a fact because I know two people who have overstayed their welcome and nobody is knocking on their doors sending them home.

Having said that, I must add that I do respect the hispanic work ethic and I am aware of the fact that illegal immigrants contribute a great deal to the economy. But that's no reason to let anyone into this country, with no background information on them.