Arabic / English t-shirt wearer made to change shirts at JFK

[planet]

I just want to throw in that I think people here may be looking at the potential problem from slightly differing viewpoints. One view is that this man is/was/should (n't) be called out because of the potential for others to complain. The other view, which I think is actually a different take on it, is to see the airlines focusing on the potential for an in air incident. This is in my opinion a justified view for the airline to take. People can complain all they want, but if an incident occurs such as a fight it becomes a substantially larger problem. So I do not think that the complaints from cutomers alone is reason to remove the guy or make him change. On the other hand, if the airline sees potential for an in flight problem they should indeed act. Keep in mind that an in flight fight with this guy would result in diversion of the aircraft and military escort most likely. Not something the airlines want if they can help it. I am NOT a fan of one size fits all justice. This dude was not ignorant of the stir he would cause and so he should expect that the airlines would want to be sure it was just a shirt, no more. I didn't read all of the posts, sorry, so if this was already said, I second it.

I also think that the reason the white women were not stopped is multifold. One is that it is more obvious that this is a response and a statement about wearing the shirt in and of itself. The other is that most people respond to the level of threat and ability to handle the threat. Most people would look at a group of white women and think, 'I can take them.' The fear response to the non-american arab is a totally different one. Not saying it is right, just that it is.


Lastly, and I realize I will be flamed for this, I think some degree of profiling makes sense. I find it totally absurd and a waste of resources when I get pulled and searched travelling with two babes and a diaper bag.

[Vishenka69]

I said I'm going to agree to disagree before

Agreed.

[Sheherezade]

Now that the fight's over.....

I have to add that this

...he should expect that the airlines would want to be sure it was just a shirt, no more.

is a very valid point! Although the airline may have been unjustified in asking him (and only him) to remove the shirt, it does make a good test of his compliance to airline rules and regs. If he refuses, then it suggests that he's an individual that could "give them trouble" in the air. Maybe the airline's concern grew as he argued. I know I'd be hesitant to fly with an angry, non-compliant guy. I saw a hostile white body pierced college kid tossed from a flight in Orlando. He was arguing with security. I have no idea about what, but off he went. With a police escort. From what I saw, it was a similar incident. The kid was trying to stick to his guns on some matter, but I don't think that's a fight you're going to win. I believe that airlines do have the right to toss a passenger they feel may represent a danger. If the shirt didn't label him dangerous, his arguing with security did. I imagine that the four white women might have met the same fate had they also ended up in a prolonged argument with security.

[Laker]

Should Jesus t-shirts be allowed? Christians have fought wars for centuries and millions have been killed in the name of religion. There are even the radicals that blow up clinics. They are as dangerous as any muslim terrorist, yet they aren't prevented from wearing their t-shirts.

(disclaimer: I am a Catholic)

[KCwife]

Should Jesus t-shirts be allowed? Christians have fought wars for centuries and millions have been killed in the name of religion. There are even the radicals that blow up clinics. They are as dangerous as any muslim terrorist, yet they aren't prevented from wearing their t-shirts.

(disclaimer: I am a Catholic)

If people are complaining to the airline about it, then no they can't.
If someone is wearing a shirt that says "Strippers are cool, and Moms drool" and the airline feels that this is a problem with its other passengers and forsees some issues arising, then they can ask that person to remove their shirt. His civil liberties were not violated because the constitution does not provide for that. He had the option on whether or not to board a private plane.

To say that his 1st amendment right was violated is the same as me saying that my 2nd amendment (right ot bear arms) or my 4th (unwarranted search and seizure) were violated. They weren't, I CHOOSE to get on the plane...and so did he.

[planet]

Someone just had to say it.

KCWife, I can’t agree with you on this based on whether customers just complain. Do other passengers look as if they will get unruly? Some things came to mind when I thought about it. One is that it does depend on what the shirt says. Is it Jesus Saves or something like If Jesus wins, Do you lose? or Life through Jesus, Death to the rest? Now I don’t have a problem with someone professing their faith. I do have a problem when I see someone advertising that they would destroy me for not sharing their faith. I think adding some subscript to the shirt in Aramaic under one of the latter shirts (or Mel's right) would be more similar to the JetBlue case. The other, and larger issue, is that justice is not meted out on the basis of laws or even fairness. An interviewee on npr the other day revealed that the reason Warren Jeff’s FLDS populace wasn’t arrested for openly illegal practices was a lack of manpower and the FLDS infiltration of the police force in his town. Ok, so when a majority of American believe in Jesus or at least the Judeo/Christian version of God then the burden of proof of offense is on the offendee (word?) rather than offender. Very, very likely the TSA officer goes to church and will ask the complaining parties to settle down or stay off the flight. Fair? Well, no, but more likely. Then there’s also the consideration of WHO is wearing the shirt. And lastly in my mind is the consideration of history. IMO we are so under taught history. If you randomly sampled an airline flight I wonder what percentage will know –when were the crusades?, -what was the purpose/what started the crusades?, -where did they take place?-how many people died as a percentage of the population? I have heard that the average education level in the US on a jury is 8th grade. Can someone confirm? Anyways, so in this case it means that recent horrors just hold more weight. Very, very few Christians blow up clinics (one?) whereas in recent years we have seen thousands of demonstrations of Muslem/Arabs burning US flags, burning effigies of Bush and chanting death to US. I may have seen Jloreine and Luanne at the effigies too, I’ll have to look closer. j/k

Ok, I really don’t have time to post, but darn, I am just addicted to iMSN.

[KCwife]

Someone just had to say it.

KCWife, I can’t agree with you on this based on whether customers just complain. Do other passengers look as if they will get unruly? Some things came to mind when I thought about it. One is that it does depend on what the shirt says. Is it Jesus Saves or something like If Jesus wins, Do you lose? or Life through Jesus, Death to the rest? Now I don’t have a problem with someone professing their faith. I do have a problem when I see someone advertising that they would destroy me for not sharing their faith. I think adding some subscript to the shirt in Aramaic under one of the latter shirts (or Mel's right) would be more similar to the JetBlue case. The other, and larger issue, is that justice is not meted out on the basis of laws or even fairness. An interviewee on npr the other day revealed that the reason Warren Jeff’s FLDS populace wasn’t arrested for openly illegal practices was a lack of manpower and the FLDS infiltration of the police force in his town. Ok, so when a majority of American believe in Jesus or at least the Judeo/Christian version of God then the burden of proof of offense is on the offendee (word?) rather than offender. Very, very likely the TSA officer goes to church and will ask the complaining parties to settle down or stay off the flight. Fair? Well, no, but more likely. Then there’s also the consideration of WHO is wearing the shirt. And lastly in my mind is the consideration of history. IMO we are so under taught history. If you randomly sampled an airline flight I wonder what percentage will know –when were the crusades?, -what was the purpose/what started the crusades?, -where did they take place?-how many people died as a percentage of the population? I have heard that the average education level in the US on a jury is 8th grade. Can someone confirm? Anyways, so in this case it means that recent horrors just hold more weight. Very, very few Christians blow up clinics (one?) whereas in recent years we have seen thousands of demonstrations of Muslem/Arabs burning US flags, burning effigies of Bush and chanting death to US. I may have seen Jloreine and Luanne at the effigies too, I’ll have to look closer. j/k

Ok, I really don’t have time to post, but darn, I am just addicted to iMSN.

The issue is NOT what a person believes, but the right of the airline to enforce their rights as a business.

[planet]

Well, I agree in theory that businesses should have the right to refuse service, but in reality they don't. This can be a good thing too. Antidiscimination laws protect people of different skin colors, physical abilities and certain beliefs from being banned by private companies. Legally and wrt smart business practices a private company still has to be very careful about how it implements rights.

[KCwife]

Planet, I am sorry, I reread all three of your posts and I still don't see a theme.

Furthermore, I never said that they could discriminate. Never did I say that.

Just because someone is a Christian does not make them less dangerous than a Muslim. You have to leave the religion out of it.

Tom Cruise- He has lost his financial backing because he exercised his right of free speech. He has a religion, and professed it far and wide. Was Paramount not justified in making a business decision based upon Tom's right to excercise free speech? Free speech does not come with consequences regardless of who you are..black, white, brown, Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Atheist, Agnostic or Scientologist. You cannot hide under the umbrella of religion regardless of your religion be it for or against you.

[planet]

I guess what I am not saying very clearly is that decisions about the refusal of/implementation of service made by representatives of or a company (or even goverernment) are situational. Proximal causes are more likely to influence a decision. I am not making a declaration that the decision is right or wrong. Any company that makes a refusal of service decision will face the possibility of a discrimination lawsuit. I am not saying you are advocating discrimination, but that an accusation of discrimination looms regardless as one consequence among many.

So a company has rights, but faces consequences of exersizing them or NOT exersizing them. Tough line to walk. That's what I'm trying to say and giving some examples.

You'd hate my ambigous nature.

Edited to add: Oh, and that was my 'someone had to say it comment' since it isn't about religion, but that's the easiest scab to pick.

[KCwife]

I know this is a Canadian Company, but...

Jewish man removed from airplane for praying

Last Updated: Tuesday, September 5, 2006 | 11:12 PM ET
CBC News
Some fellow passengers are questioning why an Orthodox Jewish man was removed from an Air Canada Jazz flight in Montreal last week for praying.

The man was a passenger on a Sept. 1 flight from Montreal to New York City when the incident happened.

The airplane was heading toward the runway at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau International Airport when eyewitnesses said the Orthodox man began to pray.

"He was clearly a Hasidic Jew," said Yves Faguy, a passenger seated nearby. "He had some sort of cover over his head. He was reading from a book.

"He wasn't exactly praying out loud but he was lurching back and forth," Faguy added.

The action didn't seem to bother anyone, Faguy said, but a flight attendant approached the man and told him his praying was making other passengers nervous.

"The attendant actually recognized out loud that he wasn't a Muslim and that she was sorry for the situation but they had to ask him to leave," Faguy said.

The man, who spoke neither English nor French, was escorted off the airplane.

Air Canada Jazz termed the situation "delicate," but says it received more than one complaint about the man's behaviour.

The crew had to act in the interest of the majority of passengers, said Jazz spokeswoman Manon Stewart.

"The passenger did not speak English or French, so we really had no choice but to return to the gate to secure a translator," she said.

The airline is not saying if the man was told he was not allowed to pray, but a spokesperson said the man was back on board the next flight to New York.

Jewish leaders in Montreal criticized the move as insensitive, saying the flight attendants should have explained to the other passengers that the man was simply praying and doing no harm.

Hasidic Rabbi Ronny Fine said he often prays on airplanes, but typically only gets curious stares.

"If it's something that you're praying in your own seat and not taking over the whole plane, I don't think it should be a problem," said Fine.

The Jewish group B'nai Brith Canada has offered to help give Air Canada crews sensitivity training.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story ... plane.html

[PrincessFiona]

Its to bad the whole incident wasn't being taped for an episode of Airline

If you haven't seen it, watch it, its a lot of fun and you'll see people are REGULARLY kept off flights for a variety of reasons.

I can't remember what channel its on but its a half hour reality show about Southwest Airlines.

I love that show...It's so funny to watch these people be so hysterically unreasonable while intoxicated, etc.

kris