School Shootings...

[PrincessFiona]

Here's a timeline of school shootings around the world

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html

Why do you guys think that the United States leads the civilized...and not-so-civlized world in school shootings? What are potential solutions? This is just shocking!

kris

[alison]

I have to run to campus, but I think part of it is that guns are far too accessible in the US.

[DCJenn]

I agree with the accessibility of guns in this country. I'm 100% sure that the founders of this country wanted us to be able to muster a militia should we be invaded....NOT take a semi-automatic into a school house and blow away Amish kids.

For every responsible gun owner, there's an idiot, an addict or a thug...

The other parts to the equasion are: We have the WORST mental health care of any first world country, period. There is a stigma about every aspect of mental health care and it's pervasive and it's not getting any better. Even if you know you need help, if you don't have insurance, you're screwed. Right now, the waiting list for people to get into the mental heath side of where I work is MONTHS LONG. (that'd be your Medicaid and Medicare dollars) because there are so few providers that can afford to take the crappy reimbursements from our so-progressive government.

Addictions: same situation but worse. We are the only clinic in San Antonio that will treat pregnant heroin addicts. The only one. Why? the idiocy of our society once again. No, people shouldn't do drugs. No, people shouldn't be having unprotected sex. No, heroin addicted women shouldn't be prostituting themselves for the drugs or the money to get the drugs... the bottom line- they do and they need care and support and yet...we're out there on our own. Every heroin-addicted child is removed from their parents and put into the foster care system. AT BIRTH. Think about those dollars, the mental health impact on mother and child and how crappy our foster care system is. Scary joo-joo. When for 12 bucks a day mom can get Methadone and not crave illegal drugs and get pre-natal care and have a healthy baby, etc.

The gap between the haves and have-nots. It's a combination of education, social supports and the institutionalized 'isms'. It's hard to climb out of the underbelly of society. (See mental health and addictions, above) It's particularly hard when you're uneducated and you have NO experience with the benefits of education. When you have to help support your family or selling drugs seems like a much better lifestyle or whatever.

Our public education system sucks. (as a whole) There are great schools and great teachers and motivated students. But there are also entire cities with deeply imbedded issues. (the mayoral candidate from DC that everyone thought was going to win ran on the fact that in part, she had been on the school board for 10 years- and when they interviewed people on primary day, everyone said, "um, that's not something I'd be bragging about.")

We have some serious, serious problems and there are no easy solutions.

and the dems answer is to throw money at the problem and the republicans answer is to let it all fall to the states and NGOs. Neither is the answer. We need a Congress with balls and a REAL Compassionate president to take a step back, stop building bridges to no where, and whining about what the other party is saying and doing and actually DO something.

If we took the money that was wasted on special projects alone... and gave it to some of the pool of talent out there to come up with innovative thinking...damn, imagine what could happen.

The 1950's way of pulling oneself up the boots straps doesn't work, the 1960s' hold hands and make everyone feel better (while being fulling funded) doesn't work, the 1970's feel guilty for everything doesn't work, the 1980's flaunt everything you've got doesn't work and the 1990's bubble economy (while great- made a lot of money, personally) can't work forever...

and we can't expect instantaneous solutions, either.

Jenn

[mommax3]

I agree with everything jloreine wrote, except for this.....

she wrote:

For every responsible gun owner, there's an idiot, an addict or a thug...

and I would say instead: For every responsible gun owner, there's an idiot, an addict, AND a thug.


There are FAR too many guns in this country, including types of weapons that I don't think should be sold to anyone, anywhere, unless they are military.

Sally

[Stella]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/04/amish. ... index.html

Church members visited with the victims' families Tuesday, preparing meals and doing household chores, while Amish elders planned funerals.

Sam Stoltzfus, 63, an Amish woodworker who lives a few miles away from the shooting scene, said the victims' families will be sustained by their faith.

"We think it was God's plan, and we're going to have to pick up the pieces and keep going," he said. "A funeral to us is a much more important thing than the day of birth because we believe in the hereafter. The children are better off than their survivors."

I read this and tears just came, here at my desk at work. I can't imagine the strength that these families can muster. They are much better than I. No matter what you believe, please say a prayer for this madness.

And yes, I am a Republican and I believe and agree with every single word Jenn said. This isn't a partisan issue. It should be a national concern and it should be getting more attention than it is. It makes me so sad to see parties fight over what is so obvious and spend their time picking on each other rather than just trying to solve the issues. This is the kind of thing that makes ME want to be President.

[DCJenn]

If only our elected officials could have a genuine discourse like this.

If it's so obvious to US- from a human perspective...why is this so damned difficult to manage.

I swear to everything that everyone holds holy, JUST the PORK spending alone could fund some really cool things.

Ihonestly don't beleive that all human beings are lost causes. We have a project here that provides case management for HIV+, addicted, mental health patients. and you know what? It works. They flush them out from the clinics and work 1:1 to start back at the beginning- take your meds, get your addictions Tx, etc. Lo and behold- in the first hree years of the project, they've actually been able to reconnect people with their families and keep them (relatively) healthy and off the streets. Just think about the piddly investment and the savings from not having them in jail, on the streets or in our mental health hospitals. These are not pretty people w/ pretty pasts. But holy moly- they're not sucking the system dry anymore either.

Why can't we think about this sort of thinking for other people who need help. and we needto be creative.

and dammit, we need to do something drastic with pedohiles. It's like the freaking plague.

Jenn

I don't know why the fact that this horror was visited on the Amish seems to upset me so much more than *just* another school shooting.

The plain and simple fact that the phrase 'just another school shooting' just dripped from my fingertips should be a huge wake-up call.

The sad truth is that the right will never allow for appropriate gun control. We'll have to pull the guns from their cold, dead hands after we pull the bullets from the poor, innocent victims.

I believe that the left will never get the 'programs' aspect of it right. Too much pork, too much grandstanding --- the right kind of / most effective programs usually can't get the funding. Just look at how much good the Gates Foundation, or Clinton's new program can do by streamling and directing the money to the right place (and bypassing the government). When politics are put aside, and even Barbra Streisand and Rupert Murdoch can agree to fund the same program .... good things can happen.

I'm sorry I'm so negative about all of this. I simply cannot wrap my head around the steps it took this man to do what he did. Pack supplies and weapons in the truck. Go to work. Finish the milk route. Go to one-room school house. Terrorize. Send the boys & teacher out. Shoot 10 little girls -- after all YOU'RE evil and sick and want to molest them, so since you shouldn't do that - make sure you line them up and shoot them execution style. It just makes me want to vomit.

[Stella]

I agree. I am very upset by all this. I worry for my little brother who's still in high school. I worry because a woman was abducted and murdered from my alma mater (http://www.timesdispatch.com/servlet/Sa ... 9190961441) while she was studying.

WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON?

Where is the sense of right and wrong? Are the parents going wrong? How can you ever trust anyone, even your own husband? How can you possibly foresee this kind of thing? I am shaken with grief for the wife and kids of that sick f*&$ and the children killed and their families and I am just utterly disappointed with the human race, over and over again. We had the snipers here in Virginia a couple of years ago. A woman was shot and killed in front of the craft store at the mall I visited a hundred times as a kid. 9/11. Columbine. Pedophiles. Mothers killing their children. What is wrong with people? Where are all the good people in the world and why can't we do something to stop all of this madness??

It really upsets me that the man who terrorized Lancaster shot himself. How selfish. That isn't justice. If he wanted to die so badly, I wish nothing more than him having to live forever with his pain and regret.

I know this is a rant full of jumbled words and phrases but I am just so... disgusted.

[Laker]

The right doesn't want to give up guns. The left wants to take them away from everyone, not just criminals or children or Dick Cheney . The left wants to hinder law enforcement from searching for guns that are in the wrong hands. Every liberal judge that grants a motion to suppress an arrest b/c of no probable cause for the stop in the first place, helps to put people back on the street. I do think that we need to protect our 4th amendment rights, but not at the cost of our 2nd.

I see this daily in court.

Then you have the right trying to limit what we can watch on tv or listen to on the radio which may or may not affect our society while the left doesn't want "censorship" and wants freedom of everything... which may or may not affect our society.

I am not sure either side has the answers.

What it boils down to is that you can't stop all random acts of violence. If there is a sick individual that wants to harm another, they will find a way. Whether it is with a gun, a car, a homemade bomb, poison...etc.

[rainbabies]

these people make me sick. i can't believe that they *think* the have the right to protest the funerals of babies. i am thankful that Mike Gallagher's radio program is providing these sickos with an outlet during the funerals.

now if they would just leave iraq and AIDS victims families alone to mourn their losses that would be great.

The controversial anti-homosexual Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka, Kan., has canceled its plans to stage a protest at the funerals of the five Amish girls executed in their Pennsylvania school, a church official said Wednesday.

Shirley Phelps-Roper, the daughter of church's pastor, told FOXNews.com the group canceled the protests in exchange for an hour of radio time Thursday on syndicated talk-show host Mike Gallagher's radio program.

"We're not going to any of the Amish funerals — that's the agreement we're making — that we won't go to any of them," Phelps-Roper told FOXNews.com.

On Tuesday, the church posted a flyer touting the demonstrations in response to the attendance of Pennsylvania Gov. Ed Rendell, who has spoken out against the church publicly. Both Amish and non-Amish residents of Lancaster County — where the shooting took place — have vowed to not allow any protesters anywhere near the funeral services; Rendell called the church members "insane."

Phelps-Roper, daughter of Rev. Fred Phelps, said the church had planned to cancel the protests if given media time on radio and television as a platform to espouse Westboro's beliefs.

Unwelcome Protest Gallagher said that church officials would have to sign a document making them liable for the airtime if they broke their promise not to demonstrate.

"It's awful for me to give up an hour of my radio show ... but I think it’s worth the sacrifice to keep them away," Gallagher said.

But she defended the church's initial decision to protest at the Amish girls' funerals.

"Those Amish people, everyone is sitting around talking about those poor little girls — blah, blah, blah — they brought the wrath upon themselves," Phelps-Roper said, adding that the Amish "don't serve God, they serve themselves."

On Monday, Charles Carl Roberts IV killed five girls — Naomi Rose Ebersole, 7; Anna Mae Stoltzfus, 12; Marian Fisher, 13; Mary Liz Miller, 8; and her sister Lena Miller, 7 — in a rural Amish schoolhouse in Lancaster County, Pa.

Donald Kraybill, a professor of sociology at Elizabethtown College in Lancaster County, Pa., calls the church's plans a publicity stunt.

"I don't think there's any connection between the Amish incident and their agenda. They just want to get in the spotlight," Kraybill said. "It's giving them national attention and it's a cheap and easy and really terrible way to gain some visibility."

The church's latest flyer, posted on its Web site notes these protests will be against Rendell for "slanderous" statements against the church.

Westboro's latest rhetoric is in line with the other beliefs of it's 70 church members, who hold that the deaths of U.S. troops are God's punishment for America's tolerance of homosexuality.

The Westboro Baptist Church has made its name demonstrating at the funerals of soldiers killed in the Iraq war. Their controversial and colorful placards proclaim their anti-gay stance with slogans such as "Thank God for Dead Soldiers," "America Is Doomed" and "Soldier Fag in Hell."

Before it garnered national attention, the church made its name around Kansas, where 16 years ago, it started protested the funerals of AIDS victims. And while their demonstrations of late have focused on the funerals of U.S. soldiers, Westboro church members have taken their picket signs to the memorials for the 12 Sago miners who perished in January in West Virginia.

Earlier this year, prompted by the church protests, Congress passed a law that banned protesters from military funerals at federal cemeteries. More than a dozen states have passed similar legislation creating protest-free buffer zones around cemeteries during funerals.

Phelps-Roper told FOXNews.com in February that the church has a right to protest.

"We are delivering a message," Phelps-Roper said. "God is punishing this nation and he is using the IED [improvised explosive device] as his weapon of choice."

I actually agree with much of what Laker said. Politically it is the unfortunate truth that it IS about Left and Right, and the foibles he stated are sadly, true.

The centrists don't get elected b/c the centrist population is unmotivated and unorganized. The extremes are what seem to get themselves organized in this country ...

Fred Phelps is a sick, sad man. I have no idea who the radio host is giving up his hour of broadcasting for the man, but at least it will save the families in Lancaster from having to deal with the wack-job.

[Stella]

:thud:

People are nuts. If I ran for President, I wonder if people would be offended by my campaign slogan, "People are crazy and stupid and eternally disappointing." Ugh.

What ever happened to responsibility and accountability?? It's not like it is DIFFICULT to NOT kill someone. Just don't. For some reason, no one feels accountable for their actions and now adults and teenagers are running amuck like crazy kids and blaming anything/one but themselves. It is depraved and I'm sick of everyone blaming the 2nd ammendment, or TV, video games, etc. Wrong is wrong and it's not THAT hard to figure it out. (I'm not saying that portrayed violence isn't too prevalent, because it is, but you can't blame a damned CD for making you kill your teacher. Give me an effing break already.)

It SHOULDN'T be about partisan politics but it is, and that is probably about 50% of the problem.

[Sheherezade]

Well aren't all those centrists just wishy-washy flip-floppers that don't really stand for anything?

I could not be trusted near that protest group if they went to the Amish children's funerals. Good thing I have my own personal gun control policy.

[Momo]

This is actually a post from kelly on the "Again" thread:

We certainly live in a culture of widespread violence and cruelty. Did anyone see 20/20 last night talking about bum hunting. In one case, four teenage boys savagely beat a homeless man to death over a three hour period wherein they beat him, left, and came back again for more. When asked why they did it, one perpetrator said, "I don't know, maybe for fun". These young men had no moral or ethical basis if they couldn't stop their impulsiveness while they beat the life out of another human being "for fun".

I'm reading a great book right now entitled "Raising Cain: Protecting the Emotional Lives of Boys." I'm not going to do the authors justice with my synopsis, but essentially these two male psychologists argue that we are raising a bunch of emotionally impaird boys in a hyperviolent society. The results are increased homicides, suicides, drugs, drunk driving, and careless sex. The authors argue that we are not giving our male children the emotional and psychological tools to cope thereby impelling them to shut down and live detached workaholic lifestyles (sound familiar?), self-medicate, lash out, or engage in some other destructive behavior.

Anyway, in order to understand this incident, Columbine, and sadly so many other incidents, I would strongly recommend this book. It is a great starting point for conversations.

Kelly

I could not be trusted near that protest group if they went to the Amish children's funerals. Good thing I have my own personal gun control policy.

Agreed. I've often said that I believe in gun control b/c I couldn't be trusted with one.

There would be plenty of people to put Phelps et.al in his place -- it's just wrong that it would turn these funerals into such a circus. These are such quiet people, I'm sure the media attention just makes everything more painful.