abortion

[migirl]

This issue has been brought up in the past, and...we admins have usually seen the topic and deleted it/PMd people about it because of the potential for 1. a horrible blow-out and 2. a desire to be especially sensitive because of Jane's devastating experience.

I don't want people to have to tip-toe around this issue because of my experience, obviously it's a legitimate topic of debate and it is still interesting to hear other people's opinions. BTW, I do appreciate the consideration of my feelings.

I just wanted to use my experience to illustrate a point, that no matter how you may IDEALLY feel about something you just never how or what you'll feel until you're put into that situation yourself. To me, it's like the death penalty. In theory, I'm against the death penalty. It's pretty easy for me to sit and judge people who are the perpetrators or victims in crimes where the death penalty is being considered, but how would I feel if (God forbid) someone I loved were murdered? I'd have to imagine that I would want the ultimate in justice done; would that involve taking the killer's own life? I just don't know. In the same vein, it's easy to have opinions about and say whether you think women should be allowed to have abortions, but until you're put into that situation you really don't know.

ETA: I also wanted to point out that I feel like there is a general misconception that women seemingly have abortions on a whim, when a lot of times there is a lot of heartache, grief, and sorrow that goes along with the choice.

Personally, I think it's too tricky to say "abortion should be illegal except for x, y, and z." Once you start making exceptions for things like that, it becomes a very slippery slope and I think that's where a lot of the gray areas occur. That's why I think it should be legal. Period. I should get to choose what I want to do, and you should get to choose what you want to do. If you don't believe in abortion and don't want to have one, fine. Just don't impose your beliefs and moral standards on me and on my life.

[PrincessFiona]

Well, on the flipside of this issue...we chose not to terminate and to move ahead with the pregnancy and chemo....and if Zoe ends up developing a secondary cancer from exposure to that much chemo...I'll truly never forgive myself for that either.

Jane, there really are no easy answers.

kris

[Vishenka69]

Personally, I think it's too tricky to say "abortion should be illegal except for x, y, and z." Once you start making exceptions for things like that, it becomes a very slippery slope and I think that's where a lot of the gray areas occur. That's why I think it should be legal. Period. I should get to choose what I want to do, and you should get to choose what you want to do. If you don't believe in abortion and don't want to have one, fine. Just don't impose your beliefs and moral standards on me and on my life.

That's exactly what I wanted to say but you said so much better.

[Ravenclaw]

Everyone has brought up some great points. I don't know how I feel. Part of me wants to be pro-life but with exceptions; however like Jane and Vishenka have said it is a slippery slope.

that no matter how you may IDEALLY feel about something you just never how or what you'll feel until you're put into that situation yourself. To me, it's like the death penalty. In theory, I'm against the death penalty. It's pretty easy for me to sit and judge people who are the perpetrators or victims in crimes where the death penalty is being considered, but how would I feel if (God forbid) someone I loved were murdered? I'd have to imagine that I would want the ultimate in justice done; would that involve taking the killer's own life? I just don't know. In the same vein, it's easy to have opinions about and say whether you think women should be allowed to have abortions, but until you're put into that situation you really don't know.

ETA: I also wanted to point out that I feel like there is a general misconception that women seemingly have abortions on a whim, when a lot of times there is a lot of heartache, grief, and sorrow that goes along with the choice.

That is exactly how I feel.

I've got to say, when I saw this topic this morning I thought "no way am I touching that one."

Jane - I wasn't around when you went through your loss. I am SO very, very sorry to hear about it. Thank you for illustrating what rattles around in my head on this one so very clearly.

[mommax3]

<reluctantly dragging myself in here to say my piece>

I don't think those who are more religious should impose on those of us who are atheists/agnostics and don't believe that life begins at conception. Keeping abortions legalized doesn't force pro-lifers to get one but banning it forces pro-choicers to abide by pro-lifers rules. I don't think that's fair.

I totally get this point of view, and agree with it......but I have to wonder when do you believe that life begins? To me, benchmarks (other than conception) seem very arbitrary. Either something is alive or it isn't, and if it is, I believe it is wrong to end that life. I agree that there are many compelling reasons why someone wouldn't want to parent a child, but I do NOT agree that most of those reasons are sufficient for denying the child the right to exist. Why is it so easy to skip over the option of adoption?

DH also has HUGE issues with abortion providers. Here in Indiana, they fly into the airport, are taken to the abortion clinic via limo, are paid in cash, and leave at the end of the day. These "physicians" have done a surgical procedure on many, many patients that day, yet they are leaving them literally without follow-up care, except for the local ER. How is that good medicine? The fact that many OB/Gyns won't do abortions is not only because of the fear of what will happen to their practices if it is known that they do them......it is also because it is hard to reconcile "First, do no harm" with deliberately ending a healthy pregnancy.

In cases such as Jane's, when continuing the pregnancy is only delaying the inevitable, I have a completely different opinion, and I consider the medical procedure that takes place then in a completely different category, although I know it is considered the same according to the law.

I know that this is not going to be a popular point of view in this thread, but it is what I believe. There are many people in my life who have chosen abortion......some are sorry, and some have no regrets. They are all people I care about and I don't hold the choices they have made against them. I don't apologize for what I believe, but I do not want to come across as judgemental or uncaring......there are no easy answers on this issue.

[DCJenn]

I just wish that the rest of the country could actually read this discussion.

Respectful, understanding. Open. Agree that it's more than just This or That. No one has thrown out statistics or speeches. It's based on our own experiences and in our own words.

I have found that for 99% of us, when we discuss these 'hot button' issues we inevitably discover that there are a world of opinons and a spectrum of issues.

and once again, I think we should just run the entire world.

Imagine.

Jenn

PS- I forgot to include this tidbit- Nikolai's birth mother had two living children and like most Russian women (due to a bunch of circumstances, including a distrust of condoms) had terminated several other pregnancies. Why she decided to carry him to term, I don't know. But I'm really glad she did.

[Vanquisher]

I am 100% pro choice. 100%. I don't even see a gray area here where I would think MY judgement on whether a woman should bring a baby to term is warranted. It is not my decision. I don't want to go into the reasons behind my feelings on this, but I have a really, really hard time seeing the other side of this issue. Even though everyone has very thoughtful remarks, I cannot see this issue in any other way. There are too many variables as others have more eloquently pointed out, and I cannot see a legislative way around it at all. If I had to place a week on it, I would say 22ish, after the 20-week ultrasound, but I would not call that a hard and fast number with all sorts of other variables that can be justified, medical or otherwise.

Jane, I am sorry for your loss. I can only imagine how painful that must have been for you and your husband.

[DrWahoo]

I don't think most people will have a problem with this, but abortion is the reason we will have a latino majority in the very near future. The only white people we will have left in America in a few decades are mormons and catholics, which is fine by me I love the Marriott and devout Catholics share my values.

I don't think most people will have a problem with this, but abortion is the reason we will have a latino majority in the very near future. The only white people we will have left in America in a few decades are mormons and catholics, which is fine by me I love the Marriott and devout Catholics share my values.

sorry? I'm having trouble following the logic here ...

[Meenah]

There is no logic.

[DrWahoo]

http://www.rand.org/pubs/research_br...31/index1.html Some research is beginning to show that slowly but surely the white majority's fertlity rates are plummeting largely due to abortion. Another studied showed that Conservatives (i.e. Mormons and Catholics) have higher fertility rates accounting for greater population growth of Republican states. http://www.parapundit.com/archives/002483.html Abortion is a form of self genocide. Killing all the undesirable human beings.

It's a sad way of looking at things, but if conservatives really want to win this country, then they should support abortion. The less liberal children running around, the less votes for liberal issues. A vote for abortion is a vote to kill liberalism.

http://www.rand.org/pubs/research_br...31/index1.html Some research is beginning to show that slowly but surely the white majority's fertlity rates are plummeting largely due to abortion. Another studied showed that Conservatives (i.e. Mormons and Catholics) have higher fertility rates accounting for greater population growth of Republican states. http://www.parapundit.com/archives/002483.html Abortion is a form of self genocide. Killing all the undesirable human beings.

It's a sad way of looking at things, but if conservatives really want to win this country, then they should support abortion. The less liberal children running around, the less votes for liberal issues. A vote for abortion is a vote to kill liberalism.

QFT

[DCJenn]

Research can show whatever you want it to.

J.

[PrincessFiona]

I don't think most people will have a problem with this, but abortion is the reason we will have a latino majority in the very near future. The only white people we will have left in America in a few decades are mormons and catholics, which is fine by me I love the Marriott and devout Catholics share my values.

Yes, the flood of immigrants across the border has nothing to do with it.