Additional Match Stress: Applying to Law School

[NYCHoosier]

I got my LSAT score back yesterday, and it's a low high score. Meaning, for T14 programs, it's the 10th-25th percentile of accepted students, for good but not top schools (e.g. Notre Dame) it's the median score, and for the rest, it's 75th percentile. It's also just barely above the requirement score for most scholarships. (My undergrad GPA is median - 75th percentile for most law schools from a "new ivy" undergrad, so I see it as neither helping nor hurting me much... esp as an older applicant).

If I were single, I'd apply to all of the top programs east of the Rocky Mountains with the hopes of getting into one really good program. One of my former coworkers got into Cornell off the waitlist at the last minute with a score three points lower than mine, so I think I'd have a shot.

But the plan was for me to apply wherever DH matches (which is part of why I'm applying for Fall '11, not Fall '10).... and some only have 2nd, 3rd or 4th tier schools. The city of our top choice on the ROL has a mid-top tier school, but my boss pointed out that those schools train lawyers to practice in that state. Big Firms are more likely to recruit from slightly less prestigious programs in the same city (Cardozo in NY, DePaul in Chicago, etc.) simply because they're local.

I like to plan. I have networking plans for jobs in 4 of our top 6 cities and have already applied to jobs in the city of our #1 because the applications were due mid-February. I asked DH to bump one program down on the list because there were no law schools there, so would it be fair for me to want to go to the best law school I can get into if it's halfway across the country?

I guess there are too many unknowns for this to be an issue right now. I should wait until we match. Maybe it'll be NY, Chicago or DC where there are good law schools as well as okay law schools that big firms will recruit from.

Maybe I can pick a handful of reach schools that I'll apply to regardless and then also apply to the schools close to wherever DH matches.

Working in BigLaw, I just know how important it is to go to the best school in order to get a job. Now that I finally figured out that I'm passionate about law (after years of denying it), I don't want to sacrifice my career for DH's.

I'd love to hear thoughts from the lawyers on the board... particularly those with BigLaw experience. Am I being selfish? Am I worrying too soon? (Okay, don't answer that; I know that one is a yes!) Am I being ridiculous to think I could get into any reach school and this is a moot point?

I feel like this girl I took dance with who got into Julliard but couldn't afford it and ended up going to the community college instead. Granted, I haven't gotten in anywhere yet, but I just see this potential and am worried I have my priorities in the wrong place to want to pursue it (ETA) regardless of the cost.

Thanks for any words of wisdom!

[L.Jane]

I just wanted to send words of support. My sister went through the law application and worry process just a little while ago (she is a first year) and I remember how nerve wracking it was. I am sorry I have no advice to give or words to help you, but I just want to wish you good luck, and I hope everything works out in the end!

[SuzySunshine]

You might try PM'ing GreyMatterWife, she's not on much lately but she would be a good resource.

Good luck - I always wish I had gone to law school regardless of DH's plans.

[scarlett09]

I don't know much about applying to law school, but I think you are worrying about it too soon. Wait until the Match is over. Do your research about programs, application processes and scholarships and have everything in order so that as soon as March 18 rolls around, you can jump right into applying.

People in law can feel free to disagree with this one: I think this is a tough time to be in law school or a recent law school grad. My cousin graduated in May and still does not have a job. In Los Angeles. Other friends of mine who are graduating this year or next are very concerned about getting internships and clerkships. Big firms are delaying the start dates for recent grads as much as 1 1/2 years. An older NYT article about the whole thing: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/26/bu...Cfn6AxsdfPSuIg.

I'm not trying to scare you with this information. As I stated before, I don't really know much about law school - all I have is anecdotal evidence from family and friends. I'm curious to see what folks who work in law say, since they are in the field. Is working in BigLaw something you really want to do with your law degree? Or are there other types and areas of law that you're interested in?

Best of luck to you in your application process!!

[NYCHoosier]

Re: Additional Match Stress: Applying to Law School

Thanks for the support! GMW is one I was specifically hoping would respond, so I'll try to PM her to direct her here.


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[poky]

Working in BigLaw, I just know how important it is to go to the best school in order to get a job. Now that I finally figured out that I'm passionate about law (after years of denying it), I don't want to sacrifice my career for DH's.

Hmm....you don't want to sacrifice your career for your DHs....but how about for kids? If you *need* that BigLaw career, but also need kids; how is that going to work when your DH is dealing with a demanding call schedule? Also, if you went to school in a different city than your DH does residency, would your marriage survive? Ask TulipsandSunscreen about the pain of these kinds of priorities and decisions. It's possible that you can't have everything you want, and now, when you have time and are making these kinds of decisions, is a good time to be thinking about what your priorities are.

I'm really not trying to rain on your parade, just want you to think a little further ahead and try to figure out if the things you're willing to sacrifice for YOUR career are worth it (and yes, I realize the hypocricy of the fact that the almighty dawkers never seem to do this until after the fact).

[NYCHoosier]

Re: Additional Match Stress: Applying to Law School

Scarlett - I work for one of the top firms, so I know how bad it is. But, I believe if you're passionate about a field, you should pursue it. I will be getting my JD. From somewhere. I'd obviously love to go to a T14 school, but I'll go to a third tier school if that's all I get accepted to.

The job market concern is very real, though. My firm is faring better than most. We typically start associates in Sept/Oct but this year started Nov 30...so we could still claim a November start date. I work with the attorney training dept a lot, and the delayed start has caused some drama fitting all our corporate training sessions in an abbreviated period.

I don't doubt that there are good applicants doing everything right and still not finding work. I know Latham laid off a good chunk of their first year associates last year before they had been there long enough for the firm to blame it on performance. There is a crapshoot element to all of this... But there are also a lot of people who just aren't doing the right things. You need to be looking for a summer clerkship from the time that you start school. You need to be applying for SA positions by the beginning of second year. You need to network like whoa. You need to be responsible and mature. You need to not treat your summer associateship like a summer in the Hamptons. I don't mean to sound like a know it all. It's all easier said than done. But I'm going into this with my eyes open...which is a big part of why I'm wondering if I should make getting into the best school I can my top priority. And I guess I'm worrying about it now because I want to know how to feel come Match Day. But I know it is still early.


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[NYCHoosier]

Re: Additional Match Stress: Applying to Law School

Hmm....you don't want to sacrifice your career for your DHs....but how about for kids? If you *need* that BigLaw career, but also need kids; how is that going to work when your DH is dealing with a demanding call schedule? Also, if you went to school in a different city than your DH does residency, would your marriage survive? Ask TulipsandSunscreen about the pain of these kinds of priorities and decisions. It's possible that you can't have everything you want, and now, when you have time and are making these kinds of decisions, is a good time to be thinking about what your priorities are.

I'm really not trying to rain on your parade, just want you to think a little further ahead and try to figure out if the things you're willing to sacrifice for YOUR career are worth it (and yes, I realize the hypocricy of the fact that the almighty dawkers never seem to do this until after the fact).

I don't think you're raining on my parade; these are all important things to consider.

For kids... I know I want them (biological or adopted), and I know I don't want them right now. I can always leave law if I feel I need to for kids. I'll evaluate the costs and benefits at that time. My boss is sort of my role model in that regard. She was a dealmaker with all the 'tombstones' to prove it but walked away for a few years to raise her kids. Now they're in middle school and she's back at the firm, not really billing anymore, still working in law in a very respected of counsel position but still being super mom as well.

As for my relationship with DH, I suppose that's the big question. Which would be worse: a little distance for a few years or me resenting him for 'holding me back'? I'm actually pretty good with long distance, but DH would probably have a hard time. I guess that's the big something to think on.

My Sunday school kids should be arriving any minute now...signing off.

Thanks again; you're all bringing up very important things to think on and I really appreciate it!


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[Bittersweet]

I just wanted to wish you luck. I can’t really offer any substantive advice - I went to law school with very different expectations and goals. Your options will be much clearer with the match out of the way. Hang in there!

[TulipsAndSunscreen]

I don't think you're raining on my parade; these are all important things to consider.

For kids... I know I want them (biological or adopted), and I know I don't want them right now. I can always leave law if I feel I need to for kids. I'll evaluate the costs and benefits at that time. My boss is sort of my role model in that regard. She was a dealmaker with all the 'tombstones' to prove it but walked away for a few years to raise her kids. Now they're in middle school and she's back at the firm, not really billing anymore, still working in law in a very respected of counsel position but still being super mom as well.

As for my relationship with DH, I suppose that's the big question. Which would be worse: a little distance for a few years or me resenting him for 'holding me back'? I'm actually pretty good with long distance, but DH would probably have a hard time. I guess that's the big something to think on.

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Hi Dear!

So I admittedly know nothing about law. But I'll add my two cents because that's what we do here...

I had the exact same thought as you: I want a career and if I have to live apart for a little while, that's fine. It'll be worse if I'm bitter that I gave that up for him. This is why I'm in Boston 50% of the time and Cleveland the other 50%.

It's not what I thought it would be. I'm great at long distance (DH readily admits this). I send constant letters, little packages, spend time on the phone, I'm willing to fly whenever we can be together, etc. It's very very hard to stay connected even with that. When he's on call, we can't speak on the phone and I'm at work when he gets home the next day (and he's only MS3) - this means we go 2+ days without speaking. Often, he needs to read in the evenings so we speak for <10 minutes. By the end of every two weeks, I feel so drained and unconnected with him. It's so tough because you want him to prioritze phone time with me but if he's not going to commit to studying as much as he needs, what's the point of being in med school? It's maddening.

Now let's talk logistics. It's nearly impossible for him to keep on top of bills, etc. So, I deal with most of our bills, schedule appointments for our dog, etc. This is VERY difficult from 500 miles away. You can't schedule a plumber while you're not there unless you can beg a friend to meet that plumber. Same with oil changes, etc. Having the dog is really hard because we have a dog walker on weeks when I'm not there. Dealing with the mail happens every 2 weeks. I come home to a pile of mail as big as I am and I have to wade through it all. Not to mention that my DH is relatively clean so the house isn't a complete disaster but I know MrsK had to hire a housekeeper to keep her house clean because her DH was an intern while they were doing long distance and he just couldn't keep up with everything.

Now let's talk money. We struggle to afford my flights back and forth and running two households and I work. If you're a student, that could be really really hard. He's not going to be able to travel because of his schedule so all traveling will be on you. Your ability to be in study groups, etc. will be impacted if you aren't going to stick around on the weekends. Weekends spent with your study group will be weekends away from your DH. It's a really bitter feeling when he's on call or has a black weekend when I'm there. The last weekend I was there, he wasn't home after 7 AM on Saturday.

SO, that's just a few comments.

Now, on to the supportive statements. If you want your JD, you can get it. It's great that you really feel committed to your future career and it sounds like you really understand what it will take to get that. My advice: go to law school where your DH matches. Introducing distance with all this stress could be really really hard.

Let me validate what you're feeling. IT'S NOT FAIR. It's not. It makes me want to scream. Why does he get his dream career and I don't or why does he get to pick the city and I have to go to a law school where he is (or med school/grad school in my case). Trust me, it makes me CRAZY. I'm going to face the same thing. I won't be able to apply to grad school until he matches and when he does, I'll have to choose a school in his city - even if it's not ideal. But, the alternative, a divided life or worse not being with him at all, is not worth it. You can rail against it forever but it's life and it's the truth and no one is going to rescue any of us and change it. So, I'm trying to learn to accept it. Some days I'm better at it than others....I'm still a work in progress.

Good luck! Keep us updated!

This is tough. I know that you know what you’re getting into with a law career. You have experience in the field and eyes wide open. You’ve done your research. If you want to be a lawyer, absolutely you should go for it.

Of course you have to wait and see where you match. I hope you end up in a city with a top law school and you’re accepted. But, admissions are fluky, and match more so. The great part is that with your LSAT score, you’re going to have options.

Unfortunately, your options may be extremely limited if you want to stay in the same city as your husband. Personally, I can’t imagine a long-distance marriage, but every marriage is different. If you and your husband think yours could survive, then and only then does it make sense to apply outside of your match city. It does you no good to have an acceptance letter from Top School X if you know you’re not going to go there on account of your geographic limitations. That just sounds like a breeding ground for resentment to me.

If you end up in a city without any good schools for you, you may need to think about what you ultimately want to do with your degree and whether or not you are willing to take a gamble. As you know, BigLaw recruits from certain schools only, and recent legal market conditions have made getting any kind of legal job significantly harder. Let’s hope things turn around by the time you’ll graduate, but they may not. As I’m sure you know, the legal field has not limited supply like medicine has. Do you think you’d have an “in” with the firm where you work now? Is that a place you might like to ultimately end up? Could your contacts there help you get interviews at other big firms? Is a BigLaw career possible given your husband’s career plans? Frankly, if you want to go that route, you know what you need to do to get there.

Even if it looks like a BigLaw career is not likely given your law school options or your husband’s career demands, there so many other fulfilling legal careers. Some regional firms and boutique firms provide the sophisticated work of BigLaw with much more humane hours expectations (but without the prestige and starting salary). Of course the best are more selective than BigLaw in recruiting, but in my experience they pay more attention to individual situations and intangibles, so school name may not be as important. If you do well in law school or go to a top school you will have many open doors. I don’t personally have BigLaw experience, but at least 90% of my law school friends went to big NY firms. Comparing my practice to theirs… I’ll just say I am very happy I ended up in a smaller firm. I’m happy to talk more about that via PM if you’d like.

I understand that it’s hard to swallow the idea that your career options may be limited by, or secondary to The Medical Career. It still bothers me at times that I know I could be doing more with my career—I still have a lot of ambition and drive, but my marriage is happier when I cook dinner every night and don’t work weekends. That’s just the way it is, and I’ll never be a superstar working those hours. More so when we have children, I’m going to cut back to part time, and I may have to give up my current path entirely if we move for residency, since my work is state and local government oriented.

Even though I sometimes feel like I’m squandering some of my potential, I came to peace with it when DH and I stopped fighting about who was sacrificing more, started talking, and worked out the following principles: 1) we both want a well-rounded life; and 2) we are both fully committed to balancing our two careers and are both willing and prepared to make sacrifices to make it work.

So my only advice is to talk about it and think about what you want in your life together. I hope you get your dream, but I think you have to think beyond just your career ambitions to what your whole-big-life-dream looks like. DH and I have both found that what we thought we wanted to accomplish in law/medicine is not compatible with the kind of life we want to build together, and while there’s a bit of regret, perhaps, for us it’s worth it to have the other things and values that are most important to us.

[GrayMatterWife]

You might try PM'ing GreyMatterWife, she's not on much lately but she would be a good resource.

Good luck - I always wish I had gone to law school regardless of DH's plans.

I'm here, guys. Sorry haven't been posting much. I've been trying to keep up with reading the posts, even if I'm not responding. I've just got some personal stuff going on right now that requires a lot of time and attention. Getting through it--just wanted to offer an explanation.

Anyhow...

Honestly, I am not sure if I have much advice to offer. I was not similarly situated when I applied. My LSAT score, like yours, was average for the school I attended, but that school was a top-50, not an Ivy League or near-Ivy. Moreover, I applied in the 1990s, during the dot-com heyday, when a lot fewer people were going to law school and the admission scores were lower. By my alma mater's current numbers, I would not be a competitive applicant, based on my mid-90s LSAT score. What made me an exceptional candidate was not my GPA, either--which also was dead average for that school back then. It was a combination of two facts: (1) my GPA progression was a strong indicator was potential success and drive--I went from nearly flunking out in my fresh-soph year, to carrying almost 4.0 for the remainder; and (2) I worked before law school and was wrote a really good admission application letter connecting that career experience with my desire to go to law school. At least, that's what the Dean told me got me in. Finally, I never thought about backup or safety schools. Never had the luxury, really. It wasn't like I'd always dreamed of going to law school and that was an understood part of my relationship with DH, and it certainly wasn't like I had such amazing qualifications that Harvard was knocking. I applied, early decision, to the only law school in nearby and just crossed my fingers.

I did not consider applying to lower-ranked law schools that would have required me living apart from DH. I did not want to live apart for three years, and I did not want to incur huge debt then not be able to get the kind of job that I'd need to pay off that debt.

If I were you, I'd make sure that DH ranks cities with top-quality la schools, then apply there. Aim for a city with several law schools, one being a "reach," and maybe one being more of a "safety." (New York, Chicago, Philly, Pittsburgh, DC all come to mind). I personally would not apply to Harvard, even if I had the grades, if DH was in Chicago. Do you really want to go through law school by yourself? That would SUCK and it would place a huge strain on your relationship. You would be missing each other during times of huge personal growth. I know what I am saying seems...maybe antiquated? The woman subordinating her choices....it must feel unfair if you are equally talented to your DH, and you are effectively closing doors by limiting your school choice based on his career. I don't really have much advice on that specifically...at the time I applied to law school, I was most definitely NOT the party with the "talent" in our relationship! We were not equals. DH had the superior professional potential. Looking back on it now, I am so fortunate that DH had more confidence in me than I ever had in myself. He now jokes that he is lucky to have married a SugarMama. (Well, at least before I jumped off the BigFirm track.)

But, be honest with DH and yourself: if you want a high-powered, BigFirm career, you should go to the very best law school you can get into. I guess you have to weigh that against distance/cost factors that would be involved. But, that's the reality. MUCH more so than in the medical world, law school name opens doors. Period. And get ready. Getting in is just the beginning. Understand what you need to do after that, and have a game plane. You need to get onto law review. Then get into the top 15% of the class. Then get your 2L note published. Then get a post-2L summer associateship at a great DC, NY, or LA firm. Then get a 3L internship with the DOJ or a federal judge. Then get a post-law school law clerk position with a federal judge (preferably US Court of Appeals in the 2nd, 9th, or DC Circuits, but any circuit would be good; if not US Court of Appeals, then a US District Court judge)...maybe a state court judge, if it is with the highest state court. There is very traditional and well-worn track that people take who want to be a partner at Skadden Arps, White & Case, etc., etc....and it's a long, tough road.

PM me if I can be of any advice. I guess, long story short, a lot of what Selu said, I second!

[NYCHoosier]

Re: Additional Match Stress: Applying to Law School

Thanks, all! Definitely a lot to think about from various perspectives.

How I'm tackling it right now:

I made a color-coded google map with all of the first, second, and third tier law schools as well as the 4th tier schools near programs on DH's ROL.
Then, I made a spreadsheet with DH's top 10 and all of the schools I'd apply to if he matches there. The NY and Chicago programs would obviously be the best for me, but for most there are some law schools nearby.
There are 3 I'll apply to regardless: top tiers in NY and Chicago as "reach" programs and the honor's program at a 2nd tier in Chicago.

That's the plan right now at least, which is different than my original impulse when I first authored this.

DH and I have talked about the possibility of distance, so it wouldn't be something out of the blue for certain locations.

Thanks again!

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[SuzySunshine]

I should add that if I would have gone to law school when I planned to it would have been before DH and I were married. We did the distance thing for 14 months and it sucked, I wouldn't want to have to done it for 3 years and especially not if we were married. I wish you luck in following your dreams I just hope you and your DH are seriously considering all of the stresses that come with residency and law school for that matter and how distance would make that even worse.

Good luck.

[Thirteen]

My cousin graduated in May and still does not have a job. In Los Angeles. Other friends of mine who are graduating this year or next are very concerned about getting internships and clerkships. Big firms are delaying the start dates for recent grads as much as 1 1/2 years. An older NYT article about the whole thing: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/26/bu...Cfn6AxsdfPSuIg.

I'm not trying to scare you with this information. As I stated before, I don't really know much about law school - all I have is anecdotal evidence from family and friends. I'm curious to see what folks who work in law say, since they are in the field. Is working in BigLaw something you really want to do with your law degree? Or are there other types and areas of law that you're interested in?

This is very very true - DH's sister is in a top program, but is worried about the job market. Additionally, a friend of mine's brother was laid off, and can't find another job, despite years of experience. I think that jobs are suffering across the board, and positions we once thought were "recession-proof" are not. Needless to say, I don't want you this information to prevent you from pursuing your dream! Good vibes and positive thoughts are coming your way, and we'll be thinking of you.