Surgeon, Pathologist, or Mom?

[Michele]

I'm in vet school, but I'm really not sure this is what I want to do. When I was younger (5 to 14) I wanted to be a human doctor. Mostly a surgeon, then trauma surgeon...then I started working for a vet and I wanted to be a vet. I went to college not sure but definitely leaning towards vet over med. I met some vets up at school and really didn't like them. I convinced myself I'd be the kind of vet I would want to be and it didn't matter what other vets were like. So I applied to vet school and was accepted and started. Then I started hating classes. And first year was kinda crappy and then second year I really started to loathe school. I hated getting up and really just wanted to avoid the whole thing. I liked anatomy though... Then I started pathology and I really liked pathology. Cutting up tissues, figuring out why animals died...it's exciting. The I had surgery class and I really liked surgery. So I started thinking about those two residencies and realized my grades weren't so hot and surgery is competitive but path isn't so I should do path. I pushed surgery out of my mind and I was going to be a pathologist. Then I started thinking about how path is alot of just looking under a microscope at rat livers....I think that would get boring...unless I stayed at the university level...which pays nothing. So I started clinics. I started with surgery and I love it! I really enjoy going in and seeing what we get to cut and I like cutting. But my grades aren't really there. I have a 3.0 and need to be somewhere in the 3.6-3.7 range...I won't get my grades there....especially without everyone else in my class boosting their GPAs as well.

There's one surgery resident I've been working with and I really respect his opinion and think he's an AMAZING surgeon. I told him I wasn't sure about vet med anymore and he was shocked. He said he thought I was pretty good at it and thought I should specialize (residency). I'm hard on myself and think I suck a lot so it's nice to hear things like this. Anyway, he got me thinking again about surgery. So I talked to him today about it. About whether or not this is something I could pursue. He told me that I'm behind but that if I really wanted to I should go for it. He said I would have to ace everything else from here on out (til I gradute in 2005) and that I would need to get involved with some surgeons, preferably the head honchos and write some case reports, get published...that sort of thing. And to get some good recommendations. He didn't blow me off....and he had a few opportunities to. And he didn't discourage me or anything....so I think it's possible...he even mentioned that he might be in a position to mentor me (he'll be done in 2 years - so he'll have more pull).

I don't know what I want. I talked to my mom and Russ and both of them said to do what I want. Mom reminded me how I always talked about surgery and when I worked at the vet all I came home and talked about was surgery and I watched surgery shows on TV. Russ brought up children and family and where would this all fit in. So now I'm not sure.

I'm young...very young actually...I'll be 23 in July. I have plenty of life ahead of me. I just always wanted to have children at 27 and 29.

vet school done 2005 ( 25 )
path done 2008 ( 28 )
surgery done 2010 ( 30 )

I think surgeons have harder hours than pathologists...and I kinda wanted to be a stay at home mom for a few years...pay is comprable in private practice for both.

I wish I had my path rotation sooner. I'd kinda have to make the decision soon. I'd need to get a jump on this ASAP. I think what I'm going to do right now is jump on the surgery ship and then if I get to path and love it, I can jsut move to that...cause I don't ahve to do anything special for that...but I have to do a lot more for the surgery so I should start that now, so I don't lose any more time.

What do you all think?

Michele

[houseelf]

Michelle,

Part of me really wants to tell you "Go For It", but I've been at similar crossroads myself and often wonder now if I made the correct decision back then. Of course, before I give you advice, I must give you the standard, "look in your heart/follow your own dreams" speech. There really is something to be said about having a major accomplishment under your belt and finding your rightful place at the proverbial table. As far as the self-doubt as to whether you have the grades, credentials, background, don't sweat it. I'm sure that you will find incredibly competent veterinary surgeons who worried that their credentials were lacking as well.

O.K. now that my obligatory "disregard-what-I-say-speech" is done, I'll tell you how I see things from where I sit. I was so Type A in my early twenties, I had to do everything to an extreme. Accounting, Law School, military jobs, travel, partying hard, securing incredibly demanding positions, you name it. I thought, "Sure, I want to do that husband-and- kid thing ...someday". "Someday" felt like a very far off place in which I certainly had a long time to get to. I knew that I would love any kid that I would have, but I didn't make any special plans to create a life that would allow me to stay at home with this mythical child. I guess I thought that I would figure things out as they came. But someday came sooner than I thought it would and I settled down with a great guy and became pregnant the second after we started to talk about having kids "someday".

I was not prepared for the the love that I felt for my child. It is almost like a primal, physical love, unlike anything that I've ever felt before. Inspite of my ADHD must-do-everything-in-this-life attitude, I now feel like I would like to stay home with my kid. Yet Sallie Mae feels otherwise and sends me a monthly reminder of the life plans I made a decade ago amounting to $550. Furthermore, no one really understands why I would lay aside seven years of education to stay at home. And then there is the reality that I've married a great guy who just doesn't happen to be in a position to support my staying home. In other words, I set myself up for a lifestyle without fulling contemplating the consequences. Don't get me wrong, I have a great life anyway, but I'm "stuck" where I'm at. Add to that fact that I'm a surgeon's wife, so my career automatically becomes secondary and marginalized when we had a child.

In the end, I wonder sometimes if my thirty year old self had met my twenty year old self if things would have turned out differently. Maybe I would have taken out less student loans and/or not backed myself into this position. Or maybe, I wouldn't have listened at all and I would still be in the same position. I am/was pretty head strong.

For whatever this long winded (and perhaps self-absorbed) post is worth, I hope that you will keep yourself as flexible as possible for a multitude of options for your future because you might just change your mind later on. It happens to the best of us.

I do realize that the P.C. response would be to merely say "Go For It/You Can Have It All", but I think that this just might be a bit of a fairy tale.

Good luck and let us know your decision.

Kelly

[PrincessFiona]

Go For It...

Now...I"m going to jump on the opposite bandwagon as Kelly, because in many ways, I suspect that I often feel that I fit the category of living the life unfulfilled.

I turned down a medschool acceptance ~9 years ago. We were living in Germany and at the time, I had great scores and a great gpa....I thought that there would always be time later for me to fulfill my dreams and I wanted to stay at home with my child. I also didn't make a plan in there about HOW I would actually accomplish this all...I just thought it would happen.

Life has a funny way of taking us on unintended trips....we lived in germany, northern ireland...did residency in PA....I felt more and more trapped at home in many ways (I know that isn't the PC stay-at-home mom rhetoric, but it is honest, Michelle.). On the one hand, I desperately loved (and do love) my children dearly, but I also felt resentful watching my husband fulfill his dreams while I was at home. It was worsened for me by what turned into a bit of a power balance issue. The more he accomplished, the less he seemed to respect the important job that I was doing at home. I started taking some post-bacc science classes, but instead of doing well, I flopped...even failing a chem class. Can you say bye-bye gpa? I couldn't manage two (and eventually three) small children, Thomas' residency and a class or two very well. I wanted to be home with them and I felt really torn...so I would drop them off at my sitter's house, run to class for 45 minutes and then run back and pick them up. I studied in the McDonald's play area and it showed. Don't get me wrong, I didn't always do poorly, but it was definately much harder than I had anticipated....much harder. I felt like even more of a failure.

When Thomas did his fellowship, I finished my MS in mol. bio...but in order to accomplish that I had to become a 'traitor' to my sahm friends. I was a 'bad' mom for going to school, I was a 'bad' student for focusing so much on my family and coming in to do my research mostly at nights...I can tell you from personal experience that the UF environment is not very friendly to women with children.....it's run by the old boy's club I felt like I was in a lose/lose situation....

At the end of the day, I did get my MS...but now I can't work with it because we don't live in an area where there are any jobs available. I love my children dearly and don't get me wrong, Michelle, I do want to be home with them...but I also desperately want a life for me. I know that goes against the whole "I am my kid's mom" stay-at-home mantra...but there are days that Thomas walks in the door and I am just standing there in tears because I feel so lonely and like life is somehow passing me by...even though it isn't....and then I feel GUILTY for feeling this way. This is NOT how I want to remember these early years....I love my kids...and I see other moms who have their children and work full or part-time and I'm envious. Many of them have found a nice way to balance family and career...but their husband's aren't doctors.

One of my friends is a social worker who works two days one week, three the next. Her dh is a nurse who stays home with the kids on the days that she works. She still considers herself to be a sahm because there is always a parent with the children and she can't understand the frustration of many sahm's

It isn't an easy decision, Michelle, but here is what I will tell you:

Go For It. Life may end up getting in the way and at some point, you may indeed decide that you don't want to practice as a surgeon full-time....or don't even want to do the residency after all...maybe you will though. For now, bust your booty to get things together so that it will be possible if you want it. You can always turn it down later if you decide against it.

My words of wisdom: You are young, you have your life ahead of you...go for it.

kris

Michele,
Sounds like those are tough choices to face.
Regarding the surgery, what would life be like after training? Would it be reasonable to work part-time after training so you could be home part-time? Being 30 years old sounds like a fine age to be starting a family. Where would Russ be in his training when you are 30?

If you pursued surgery but couldn't get in how hard would it be to do path? If the surgery is what you really want to do, I think you should pursue it. And don't let the gpa part slow you down. I think that if you make good connections and really get to know the right people they will write great letters of recommendation for you -- letters that show they know who you are and believe in you. Add the research to that and I bet you'll come out ok.

So, I think you can make the surgery part work and at the least know that you gave it your best effort. The bigger question is how this fits into your life goals and Russ' training plans. At times I share Kris' frustrations with the modifications I've made to my career for the sake of the MD career in our house. And I'm not saying that you have to be the one to give up what you want.....it's just important that you are both on the same page.

Let us know what you decide.

[Meenah]

Just my $.02 here. The kids will be gone before you know it, and you still need a life of your own. The kids will be gone and your spouse will be basking in the career you made possible. Never forget yourself.
Luanne

[Michele]

You all brought up some good points and when I have more time I'll write some more...I just wanted to let you know Russ' plan...

He'd like to do his residency here at UF...we're just bought a place...closing is tomorrow...and we don't like the cold and I want to stay near a vet school so my options could stay open...UF is the best place for us right now.

He's heard that most UF med students get matched at Uf if they want to be...so we're hoping for that...also if I'm here in a residency program I might be working with vets who workd with MDs who could put in a good word for Russ.

He's not sure though what he wants to do. He likes neurology (not surgery) but feels it's a dying field b/c of the new imaging techniques and such. He likes pain management. And he still likes reproductive endocrinology - fertility stuff. He's also worried about his grades though since he's in the middle of his class not the top. But he's already got a really good reputation with several MD PhDs in the neuro field and one MD in the area who was rated one of the 50 best a year or two ago - and I think once he's met some of the others, he'll find more that he likes and they will love him. I think he'll receive great recommendations. But he doesn't know what he wants to do yet...he just wants to stay at UF for now.

Michele

PS...I did surgery on my dog yesterday! She had an episioplasty done because she had a recessed vulva and she was getting recurrent dermatitis and I foresaw recurrent UTIs....it was cool....but weird cutting your own animal. The surgeon who was helping me said I must have surgeon blood in me to cut my own dog. It came out well and I think she'll heal nicely.

[PrincessFiona]

surgeon, pathologist or mom?

Let us know what you decided, Michelle...It sounds like you guys plan on staying with UF for awhile (the Match willing!), which would make it easier for you to put things together for yourself...

Has Russ done much work over there at the Brain Institute? I worked with Dr. Streit briefly...but it was a positive experience. I just couldn't put the time in that would have been required due to family obligations. There are plenty of neuroscience research opportunties that he could get involved in that might seal his 'match' for him

Kris

[Michele]

Sorry I've been so busy! Clinics are much more draining than classes. Thankfully it's a good draining.

I've decided to pursue Surgery. I really loved it and I miss it everyday. I liked the surgery part of the large animal rotation I took, but I don't like horses so I'm definitely sur I want to work with dogs and cats.

I am on Acupuncture now and while I think it's a really great modality...I'm not enjoying the rotation.....it's only been day two so maybe it will get better. While walking around the hospital I saw one of my old patients from Surgery. She's a cat that had a broken jaw. She looked great! And it made me very happy...in a weird kind of way...like I'd done something good and I felt at home checking in on her progress even though she's not my case anymore and all.

While on Large Animal surgery I worked on a pig and it was a really neat case so I am going to try to write it up and submit it to a Journal. This would look really great on my resume and give me lots of good experience. I've also talked to another Surgery resident (large animal) and he thinks I've got great potential too.

It feels really good to have something that I want to do. I'm passionate about medicine again and I want to research different procedures and all. I think the mother thing will come in time...for once I'm not focused on it!

We just bought a townhouse and we've got a lot to do for it and we're figuring out where we are so it's chaotic but there's goals and we're progressing towards them.

Russ is researching Fibromyalgia this summer and he's much better out of school. We'll see where this goes.....he's really enjoying the subject of pain and maybe there's a future in anesthesia for him.

I've got a lot to do so I won't be around much....I miss hanging out and reading. Maybe in a few weeks on my vcacation I'll get some me time...until then thank you guys for the support. It's great to talk to anonymous-ish people who understand.

Michele

[PrincessFiona]

surgery

Good for you, Michelle...follow your dreams....You can always scale back later when you have children if you want.

kris

[Michele]

So I really don't know about this surgery residency....I really want it right now....but I'm so not competitive and I really don't think I'll get a spot here....they only take one each year...

It's a four year program....one year you are a Master's student....then you complete 3 years of residency. You have to intern somewhere else for a year as well.

I'm very intimidated by the whole thing....it makes me feel like a weeny. I feel really inadequate about trying for it....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Russ and I bought furniture from his classmate and we went there to look at it and she delivered it for us....she has a 17 month old who is adorable. I loved playing with her it kinda made my uterus itch! And after they left, I saw something in Russ' eyes that wasn't there before...and I called him on it. He was thinking about making some munchkins of our own. Not now. But in the future...it just seemed like the future was looking closer. He's always "wanted children" but also admitted he wasn't ready and that he was really uncomfortable with children...he's looking more and more comfortable every day and it makes me question what I want.

This struggle to specialize or not...I can do a lot of basic surgery as a regualr vet...but the pay is a lot less. And path is looking less and less likely as a majority of the path dept has left (all the good fun ones - leaving the boring weird ones) and I'm not at all enthused about spending 3 years or so with those people....I don't fit in that well with them...I'm not quite odd enough.

By wanting a family, I can justify my lack of competitive edge for surgery. It's funny that the one surgeon I really liked and who I mentioned before said in my evaluation:

seems to have a natural aptitude for surgery but doesn't always apply herself

Do you know how many times I've heard that I don't apply myself? Or that I am not putting forth my full effort or using my full potential? I'm quite apathetic sometimes. It usually doesn't bother me, but right now it does. But at the same time, I don't know why I need to do this. I could have a perfectly happy life as a vet with a family...or so I think. Why push around and try for a surgery residency....I could just maintain my little 3.0...why do I need to push for A's now...I'm trying more than I was....but I'm still pulling B's in my rotations....I just can't seem to put that extra effort in. I know it's in me. I am smart...and I know things and am proficient at clinical skills...I can diagnose and form treatments and am not afraid to poke, stick, cut....I know the pysiology...I get along excellently with the techs and clinicians...I can answer on the spot questions by the clinicians...I don't get tongue tied and nervous....but when I take the end of the rotation quizzes (usually 15-20 % of the grade and based on a packet of articles) I perform very poorly. I can't force myself to stay awake and read the packets. And they keep me from getting A's on these rotations...but it's the same with classes...I couldn't force myself to stay awake to study for exams...I would just go in with the knowlegde I'd learned from lectures and assignments...I rarely study more than 3 hours for a class. And it's what gets me. I know I'm lucky that I score so well and retain so much just from the lectures...but if I could just get myself motivated to put in the extra little effort. I put things off until the last minute and then I can't stay awake to read. Even if I try to read earlier in the day...the act of sitting down in a chair makes me so tired...so I get apathetic and just don't do it...and I was going to write a case report...but haven't done it. So I think it's going to become easy to say that trying for this residency is going to be too hard and I'm going to give up.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This post has become sort of a journal for me...and writing this all out is therapeutic...so I'm asking that I don't get criticized to harshly. I recognize my fault...I'm just to apathetic to do anything about it right now. To quote the GI Joe cartoon

knowing is half the battle.

Maybe someday I'll break myself out of this...if you have any ideas or advice, feel free to let me know!

[DCJenn]

Michelle-

Let me share with you a little story from my husband's experience.

He had the same three guys as lab partners throughout medical school. All four are good-looking, slightly crazy guys who also made a conscious decision to enjoy life while in medical school. They therefore graduated solidly in the bottom third of their med school class. And they were perfectly happy with it. They could also tell you about new restaurants, they played sports, they dated (oh, yes- did they date!) and generally participated in life.

One of the lab partners is still here in DC, finishing up his fourth year of psych residency. Apparently, he was talking to his advisor, who was also a professor at the medical school. This professor couldn't stand the four of them, thought they were total screw-ups and were destined to be horrible doctors. Fast forward three years- all four guys got in to residency programs straight out of medical school- Pediatrics, Psychiatry, Orthopedic Surgery, and a Psychiatry/Internal Medicine Specialty program. My husband has also gone on to fellowship. All four have excelled as physicians and all four have relatively normal family lives, hobbies and lifestyles.

The professor/mentor/advisor admitted to our friend that the four actually had the right idea all along. They learned how to balance their lives which, in the end, made them better people and then better doctors. He said that he has actually changed the way that he advises students if he can see that they are capable of doing the work but have no desire to kill themselves to graduate first in the class!

So- the lesson here is be who you are and let them see you as a benefit to their program precisely bacuase you're not like everyone else! It's worked out well for the four lab partners!

Jenn

Michelle,

Isn't the baby bug a funny thing? My husband and I will be married a year on Sunday, and before we got married children were the last thing on my mind. We always said we would have them some day, but not for a good long while. Then, all of a sudden after the wedding I started getting the same feeling you described when I saw a baby, and my husband felt the same way. But then it passes, and I feel like we need to get a little further down the road in our marriage and our careers before we take the big step.

I share your concern on the career front, and the thought of the decisions I will have to make when a child comes in to our lives scares the heck out of me. (the stay at home/work discussion that occured on this board a month ago didn't help allievate my fears) I don't want to sell myself short, but I want to leave myself in a position to be able to have flexibility and spend time with my future kids.

My philosophy now is to work as hard as I possibly can to be in the position I want to in a few years, but also to establish from the begining that having a life outside of work is something I value.

Luckily I have a husband who shares those values, and chose his speciality for that reason. I hope this will make it easier for both of us to balance our family and our careers.

I don't have any solid advice for you, but I just wanted to let you know that I understand what you are going through. Maybe your lack of motivation demonstrates not that you are apathetic but that you value other things in your life as well. I know this is a huge struggle. I hope you will come to a decision that you and your husband are both happy with.

Emily

[PrincessFiona]

surgery

So I really don't know about this surgery residency....I really want it right now....but I'm so not competitive and I really don't think I'll get a spot here....they only take one each year...

It's a four year program....one year you are a Master's student....then you complete 3 years of residency. You have to intern somewhere else for a year as well.

I'm very intimidated by the whole thing....it makes me feel like a weeny. I feel really inadequate about trying for it....

It does sound like an extremely competitive program to get into....is there any other program nearby that you could also apply to? Have you sat down and spoken with any of the professors who might be able to give you an indication of how competitive your application is?

Russ and I bought furniture from his classmate and we went there to look at it and she delivered it for us....she has a 17 month old who is adorable. I loved playing with her it kinda made my uterus itch! And after they left, I saw something in Russ' eyes that wasn't there before...and I called him on it. He was thinking about making some munchkins of our own. Not now. But in the future...it just seemed like the future was looking closer. He's always "wanted children" but also admitted he wasn't ready and that he was really uncomfortable with children...he's looking more and more comfortable every day and it makes me question what I want.

I hear you there, Michelle...it is a really difficult position to be in because as the mom, you will really end up being the primary caregiver for the child....particularly if Russ is still in med school or residency. Have you guys talked about this since then?

Do you know how many times I've heard that I don't apply myself? Or that I am not putting forth my full effort or using my full potential? I'm quite apathetic sometimes. It usually doesn't bother me, but right now it does. But at the same time, I don't know why I need to do this. I could have a perfectly happy life as a vet with a family...or so I think.

Do you think that your ambivalence about which direction that you want to go could be affecting your 'effort'? For me, when I get into that spot, I seem to just almost...lose steam. It isn't about a lack of ability..it's about not knowing what I want. Of course the danger there is that the choice is then made for us...ie we don't put out the extra 150%, so we end up not having to make the choice....at least that's how I am about things...then I end up feeling disappointed, but the decision was made by someone else and not me.

Why push around and try for a surgery residency....I could just maintain my little 3.0...why do I need to push for A's now...I'm trying more than I was....but I'm still pulling B's in my rotations.... I rarely study more than 3 hours for a class. And it's what gets me. I know I'm lucky that I score so well and retain so much just from the lectures...but if I could just get myself motivated to put in the extra little effort.

Michelle, grades are not everything....and they certainly are not the make-it or break-it indicator of ability...I've only taught for one year, but I can tell you that some of the brightest students that I've had have been B students....anyone can spit out information for a quiz if they end up reading through the packets and memorizing them, etc, etc...but a lot of the 'A' students that I've had memorize it, spit it out for the exam/quiz and then can't put 2+2 together the next day.
Case in point:

Student S.B...An A student in the class and lab, pre-med...(and a jerk, btw)...took an exam that covered microorganisms and got an A. One day later he was asked to talk about a bacteria in class and spent 7 minutes talking about HIV (a virus)...and he just didn't get it when I mentioned that it was a virus, not a bacteria...so when I tried to get him to talk about the difference between a gram- and gram+ cell he had no clue what I was talking about...but he had been able to spit out the outline of the info for the exam.....what value was that A? Some of the B students in the class were much more capable of discussing critically the difference in the bacterial cell wall structure and implications for antibiotics, etc...and he just kind of nodded through it....the only thing that mattered to him was getting an A to keep up a 4.0 so that he could get into med school.

Anyway, my point is that you are articulate, able to answer questions clinically, and are an excellent clinician....maybe that is what is important.

I put things off until the last minute and then I can't stay awake to read. Even if I try to read earlier in the day...the act of sitting down in a chair makes me so tired...so I get apathetic and just don't do it...and I was going to write a case report...but haven't done it. So I think it's going to become easy to say that trying for this residency is going to be too hard and I'm going to give up.

Maybe you really just aren't sure of exactly what it is that you want? Honestly, Michelle...right now I'm supposed to be getting ready for the new semester to start...I'm supposed to be organizing the lab, putting together the course website, etc...and I have done NOTHING...a great big ZERO..I just can't kick myself into motion...and I know that it is because I'm feeling so blasted ambivalent about this. I'm having a great summer with the kids and I just want to spend the time with them, or sew, or get ready for the baby...I'm suddenly asking myself if I even care at all about having a career ever....I'm sure that this is why I can't force myself to do what I need to do...and I know that next week I'll be busting my behind in a last minute rush to get the minimum done before school starts. I feel your pain.

so I'm asking that I don't get criticized to harshly. I recognize my fault...I'm just to apathetic to do anything about it right now.

I can't imagine anyone thinking anything critical about anything that you've said...you are being much too hard on yourself!!!!

Why don't you go in and talk with some of the profs and see where you are at in terms of competitiveness, and sit down and decide where you see yourself and your family planning in 2 years, 4 years, 6 years, etc...See how things might fit together and determine what would make you truly happy....and be gentle with yourself!