Lawyers & Law School Hopefuls

[MrsK]

I know there are a lot of us in here. Very depressing article in the NYT: http://finance.yahoo.com/college-edu...uing_education

[ladymoreta]

That is really depressing. I just keep thinking of my BIL, who's in his first year of law school, and I really hope that he ends up being one of the lucky ones... The process of medical school app and then Match are a pain, but at least it limits the number of doctors.

[poky]

Yeah, the "We can't limit the number of law school spots because there are rural areas (that laywers don't want to move to) that don't have lawyers" is such BS. Medicine limits the number of med school and residency spots, don't they? Even though there are underserved areas? Maybe there could be "we'll pay back your law school debt if you move here" incentives like there are for doctors! Oh, except most lawyering (except court appearances, right?) can probably be done remotely, unlike most doctoring. Guess that isn't quite as parallel. Hm.

[SoonerTexan]

I think there is such a glut because it is the default answer for anyone who graduates and isn't sure what they want to do with their life (my sister included--though I think she isn't going to go that route now, thank goodness--she is definitely not cut out to be a lawyer.)

In my senior history capstone I was the ONLY STUDENT with a job the April before we graduated. The history dept. was really excited that I actually had a job lined up until I told them it was an IT position I got through my other major. 2/3 of the class planned to go to grad school--a good majority of them were headed to, or trying to get to law school. When you don't know what you want to do and the clock is ticking, it seems like a easy way to prolong the student life and have an answer for what you are going to be doing come graduation.

I do have one friend who is doing it right--her parents are both lawyers so she knows what she is getting into and knows she has to be at a good school/top of class to get a job. She also took a year off i between and studied her a** off for the LSAT. She got the score she needed to get a full ride to SMU in Dallas. (and she was National Merit at OU with me so no undergrad debt). Smart girl.

Wow, that articles makes me feel better about my decision to open my own practice. It may be tough right now but it's better to control my own destiny. I think it is ridiculous how law schools inflate post-graduation employment. I was recently discussing this with a friend from law school who is employed by a legal-based non-profit but not in lawyer capacity. We were amazed at how our alma mater seems to continue to claim a 90% post-graduation employment rate and yet we know multitudes of our classmates who are unemployed, underemployed (myself included) or employed in some other field or non-attorney job. It's outrageous. And I completely agree that law schools should be more selective (I wouldn't have gotten in if that were the case but so be it) like medical schools. It serves no one to continue to "over-produce" under-qualified attorneys.

I decided later in life to go to law school and knew damn full well what I was going to be up against coming out and I never planned on (or was) in the top 10% of the class but I have close family members who have also "hung out their shingle" and knew that push come to shove I could always go into business for myself. I also knew I would probably prefer being my own boss Graduate school has definitely become a place for people to simply "hide-out" before entering into the real world, but maybe if college actually prepared people with some sort of practical job training we wouldn't have such an issue with this. Don't even get me started on student loans....!

[Bittersweet]

I hesitate to even post because I did not struggle to find employment and my school loans are minimal. I’m not naïve enough to think I’m the norm … but I’m also not sure that those featured in the article are either. I can’t imagine choosing to take out $250,000 in student loans (like the guy featured) without first engaging in a thorough cost/benefit analysis. A little research would have revealed that attending a low ranked law school = no BigLaw and no big payout. Just by performing a simple Google search I discovered that the average starting salary was $54,000 for those that graduated from his law school in 2006. How did he plan to pay back $250,000 at that salary? Did he even think about it? It’s the lack of personal responsibility that causes me to bristle and, as a result, it’s hard for me not to discount his experience.

There is no denying that the market is tight and I don’t doubt that there are qualified individuals without meaningful employment. My point (I think there is one, maybe) is that the very important message of these types of articles is too easily disregarded because of the individuals featured. It’s disgusting that some law schools engage in shady admissions and reporting practices – I had no idea. I just wish the article would have named names (i.e. listed the schools that are notorious diploma factories) and given actual employment statistics. Now that's some information that would be helpful to those contemplating law school. Ok, vent over.

[MrsK]

I finished law school in 1999. He would have been starting law school around 2003 if he finished in 2006 and I think the article said that he was in NY. Around 2001-03, NY salaries went through the roof. BigLaw was paying 1st year associates right out of school $125-150 even in less competative markets to keep up with the NY firms. The NY firms were raising salaries to keep up with the CA dot-coms who were stealing lawyers. I remember around that time many of my classmates were making lateral moves and getting huge bumps in their salaries. It was crazy. Nothing warranted the salary increases. By 2006, I think salaries were back on their way down. And now, BigLaw is not hiring, many firms have let associates go (there are no associates in my department), and it's been bleak for about the last 3 years.

[GrayMatterWife]

I am very lucky to have the position that I do, and I know it. It is very tough to be a recent law school grad right now. The law school interns that we get are depressed about the prospects.

[Mrs. MD, Esq.]

This is so scary -- especially because I was lucky enough to get a job in this atrocious market and I have good connections in the legal community (which has resulted in me potentially having an opportunity to transfer to a much better-recognized firm in the next few months) which I may have to give up if my fiance matches outside of the city in which I am living. I am terrified of having to start all over again in this rotten market un-barred and in a new state without any connections to the local legal community.

I am terrified of having to start all over again in this rotten market un-barred and in a new state without any connections to the local legal community.

Um, yeah this blows, trust me. I would suggest that as soon as you know where your fiance' matched you start to try and make connections, and not just apply to jobs but talk to folks in the area in your field and explain your situation, that way you can hit the ground running when you actually move.

My dad owns his own practice in California and his last few attorney hires have been lawyers that were licensed in California (no small feat to pass that bar) and had been waiting tables for a few months or even years since they passed the bar because the job market was so bad. Not waiting tables in addition to working as lawyers, but in lieu of. He even had a guy that had passed the bar apply for a legal secretary job they were advertising for. My dad hired him for it on a probationary period as a beefed up law clerk and then moved him up to an actual attorney's salary after a few months. I think he got hired because he showed that he was just that dedicated to that type of law, he would work in the field in any capacity. It's a bad deal out there. Makes me thankful for the work I do get and for a steady resident's salary no matter how much of a pittance it may seem at times.

[reciprocity]

I was coming out of a meeting with two senior partners discussing how surprised they were at this article and it was all I could do to not knock on their heads like "HELLO WHAT DO YOU THINK HAPPENED TO THE ENTIRE CLASS OF 1Ls THAT YOU DEFERRED A YEAR AND THEN RESCINDED THEIR OFFERS"

[NYCHoosier]

I hesitate to even post because I did not struggle to find employment and my school loans are minimal. I’m not naïve enough to think I’m the norm … but I’m also not sure that those featured in the article are either. I can’t imagine choosing to take out $250,000 in student loans (like the guy featured) without first engaging in a thorough cost/benefit analysis. A little research would have revealed that attending a low ranked law school = no BigLaw and no big payout. Just by performing a simple Google search I discovered that the average starting salary was $54,000 for those that graduated from his law school in 2006. How did he plan to pay back $250,000 at that salary? Did he even think about it? It’s the lack of personal responsibility that causes me to bristle and, as a result, it’s hard for me not to discount his experience.

There is no denying that the market is tight and I don’t doubt that there are qualified individuals without meaningful employment. My point (I think there is one, maybe) is that the very important message of these types of articles is too easily disregarded because of the individuals featured. It’s disgusting that some law schools engage in shady admissions and reporting practices – I had no idea. I just wish the article would have named names (i.e. listed the schools that are notorious diploma factories) and given actual employment statistics. Now that's some information that would be helpful to those contemplating law school. Ok, vent over.

To be fair, law schools do manipulate the data they publish, and that's a problem. Of course, a person hoping to pursue a career in law should be a little better at research, but that doesn't excuse shady practices by schools. I mean, OSU, for example, has a 100% response rate, with 98.6% employment rate (half in-state), yet only 93% passed the Ohio bar. Granted, you can have a good job without passing the bar, but it still seems fishy. And that's a pretty mild example.
St. John's lists on their website that the median salary for those in law firms after law school is $160k. St. John's is a decent (T2) school... but it's in the same market as Columbia, NYU and Fordham, not to mention NYC firms hire from the rest of the T14 as well. There are only so many spots, but the website makes it seem like half the kids who go into firms from St. John's make $160k+. Maybe that's true, but it doesn't really tell the full story (like that the data is over 2 years old and only 63% of the class responded).

Despite this, I'm still going forward with law school plans, but with as little debt as possible. DH already has $250k in student loan debt; I don't need to add to that. I just plan to network like crazy.