Another perspective on "Lean In"...

[Sheherezade]

This interested me because I've always noticed that many of the women I envy/admire for their ability to climb the ladder have family nearby. As a med spouse, this has been difficult for us. Also, I thought the stats on females in leadership roles in China were astounding. Damn. Maybe it's the one kid policy as well.

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2...omen-hong-kong

[moonlight]

Very interesting perspective. I can't wait to read the responses here! The part where she said her kids don't miss her even after they haven't seen her in weeks made me feel icky. I guess she was trying to prove that her kids are emotionally stable with grandma even though she isn't around much, but that's just sad to me.

[TulipsAndSunscreen]

I mean it's interesting but obviously not going to happen in American culture.

I also think (insert disclaimer that this is my own personal opinion and it could be controversial), that even if you want to work which is a perfectly valid choice, I still think you should be doing a LOT of the child rearing. You had kids for a reason, didn't you? I say this as a working mom who works LOOOOOONG hours. I started work at 4 AM today which I did so I could take from 7-9 to have breakfast with my daughter and get her ready for the day. There's a reason that I don't get a babysitter for the weekends/weeknights except on rare occasions even though I could often use the help and get very little "me" time. I want to spend time with my child and of course everyone needs a break sometime but not having someone else do the child rearing all the time. It's definitely not always easy to make it work but I find the idea that a child could go weeks without their mother really sad. It's great that they get time with their grandmother and I'm certainly not above calling in reinforcements (my own mother is coming the week after Labor Day while I go on 3 business trips in 4 days) but I don't think someone else being the sole caregiver for six years as she said makes a lot of sense. Perhaps she overstated her mother's role in raising the kids but even with a full-time nanny, I still know my child better than she does and I, personally, would not be comfortable with someone else taking over that role.

[Auspicious]

The grandma in the story was only in her fifties and was not retired. You still have a woman "opting out" of 10+ years of her career, possibly the prime years. I think this "solution" is really just robbing Peter to pay Paul.

[Sheherezade]

I agree that the extent of the "hand off" she describes is craaaaaazy. That would never happen here. I think mostly because moms wouldn't like it. This stat interested me:

There, 51 percent of positions in senior management are held by women, and about 19 percent of its chief executives are women. In the United States, just 20 percent of senior managers and 4 percent of Fortune 500 chief executives are women.

And this one:

According to the Shanghai Municipal Population and Family Planning Commission, 90 percent of young children in the city are being looked after by a grandparent.

So different from here. Here, it seems like our corporate culture contributes to family division because it requires so much mobility. It seems standard in the US to go where the job is not stay near family. I think that might hurt women with children by moving them away from established support networks - be they family, known caregivers, or friends.

ETA: I agree with that perspective, too - but I wondered if this approach would ultimately land more women in top leadership roles. I don't know if grandma's chance of reaching a top tier of business is equal to the daughter's chance given the same amount of time. It really isn't clear to me. Maybe grandma would become a "Decider" but maybe her daughter would be able to reach that position more easily in her 20 years of work before she got called in to duty. Also, ideally, there are 4 grandparents providing care for one child so less time per adult (six sharing care for one) than if it is the parents alone (two sharing care for one).

[medpedspouse]

I think that it is a cultural thing...and not just in Asian countries. I've seen it in European and South American countries as well. Even within our own country, certain religious/ethnic groups either share equally or have other family/friends care for children because of varying circumstances. It may not even have to do with a working mother.

[poky]

The grandma in the story was only in her fifties and was not retired. You still have a woman "opting out" of 10+ years of her career, possibly the prime years. I think this "solution" is really just robbing Peter to pay Paul.

But, we don't know if her mom built her career when her children were small, and had HER mother's help at that time. She might have. In which case, it's just a multi-generational shift of the "prime years".

[poky]

But, we don't know if her mom built her career when her children were small, and had HER mother's help at that time. She might have. In which case, it's just a multi-generational shift of the "prime years".

...and now that I think about it, still has women opting out of careers at some point, when men don't have to... *sigh*

[MsSassyBaskets]

I'm not even a parent yet and I'm sick of all the Lean-In/Opt-Out Mommy Wars bullshit.

[Auspicious]

Really? I think it's far less war-like and more productive than the tone in the '90s and I'm glad for that progress.

I was thinking that the grandparent solution is kind of the opposite of Mary Anne Slaughter's advice in her Atlantic piece, that things should shift to accept a later career peak:

Redefining the Arc of a Successful Career

The American definition of a successful professional is someone who can climb the ladder the furthest in the shortest time, generally peaking between ages 45 and 55. It is a definition well suited to the mid-20th century, an era when people had kids in their 20s, stayed in one job, retired at 67, and were dead, on average, by age 71.
It makes far less sense today. Average life expectancy for people in their 20s has increased to 80; men and women in good health can easily work until they are 75. They can expect to have multiple jobs and even multiple careers throughout their working life. Couples marry later, have kids later, and can expect to live on two incomes. They may well retire earlier—the average retirement age has gone down from 67 to 63—but that is commonly “retirement” only in the sense of collecting retirement benefits. Many people go on to “encore” careers.
Assuming the priceless gifts of good health and good fortune, a professional woman can thus expect her working life to stretch some 50 years, from her early or mid-20s to her mid-70s. It is reasonable to assume that she will build her credentials and establish herself, at least in her first career, between 22 and 35; she will have children, if she wants them, sometime between 25 and 45; she’ll want maximum flexibility and control over her time in the 10 years that her children are 8 to 18; and she should plan to take positions of maximum authority and demands on her time after her children are out of the house. Women who have children in their late 20s can expect to immerse themselves completely in their careers in their late 40s, with plenty of time still to rise to the top in their late 50s and early 60s. Women who make partner, managing director, or senior vice president; get tenure; or establish a medical practice before having children in their late 30s should be coming back on line for the most demanding jobs at almost exactly the same age.
Along the way, women should think about the climb to leadership not in terms of a straight upward slope, but as irregular stair steps, with periodic plateaus (and even dips) when they turn down promotions to remain in a job that works for their family situation; when they leave high-powered jobs and spend a year or two at home on a reduced schedule; or when they step off a conventional professional track to take a consulting position or project-based work for a number of years. I think of these plateaus as “investment intervals.” My husband and I took a sabbatical in Shanghai, from August 2007 to May 2008, right in the thick of an election year when many of my friends were advising various candidates on foreign-policy issues. We thought of the move in part as “putting money in the family bank,” taking advantage of the opportunity to spend a close year together in a foreign culture. But we were also investing in our children’s ability to learn Mandarin and in our own knowledge of Asia.
Peaking in your late 50s and early 60s rather than your late 40s and early 50s makes particular sense for women, who live longer than men. And many of the stereotypes about older workers simply do not hold. A 2006 survey of human-resources professionals shows that only 23 percent think older workers are less flexible than younger workers; only 11 percent think older workers require more training than younger workers; and only 7 percent think older workers have less drive than younger workers.

ETA: Obviously it's not an either/or. Families will continue to do what's best for their individual situation. I'm just saying, if we get to where we're admonishing grandmothers instead of admonishing mothers for not staying home, it won't be any kind of gain for women.

[HouseofWool]

Slaughter's article makes a lot of good points. But, my takeaway? That I will spend 50+ years working... Really not the trajectory I had envisioned.

[Pollyanna]

It will be interesting to see how things change in China as the divorce rate is rising rapidly, they have had the "one child" law, and these women who have had great support the build their careers become faced with grandchildren themselves. Will they choose to leave their careers to help raise a grandchild? Will they even have that option if they are their sole support? Many of these woman dont have siblings so you can no longer count on the support of an aunt or uncle. Unfortunately, it's not as simple as leaning on grandma for support.

[Sheherezade]

Eh, I kind of ignored the fact that it was only grandma pitching in on this story. I was thinking that with one child per couple and four grandparents to help out, that the work load gets distributed much more easily. Six working adults, one kid. That's workable. Obviously, I'm an idealist! It sure beats one parent, three kids.

Also, I think as med spouses, we have all struggled with moving away from family. Of course, these days, most people have to move away from family. I don't think it's a recipe for success. It does grow the child care industry, though.

[SoonerTexan]

The part about grandma leaving grandpa in another country indefinitely...that seems wrong. It's what stuck out to me. I couldn't do that to my mother.

I have a lot of help from my mom and family. In laws have offered the same if we end up near them. It makes a huge difference and bails me out of situations a lot.

Still...my mom admits she gets pretty tired out even after one day a week with N. She loves that day and rearranges her schedule so she can spend the whole day solely focused on her. My dad tries to be home on those days too, and they have a blast. A few times she has bailed me out and watched N most of the week. That seriously infringes on her life--she does it happily when she can, but it is a lot of work for her. She's only 50 and raised 5 kids, but admits it is still different. While I trust no one to watch my baby more than my mom, and even thought about whether or not she would work as the sole babysitting when I was pregnant, I realize now what I would be asking of her. I couldn't ask it. It's too much. She chose to have me, she raised me. She didn't choose to have N and gives more than enough as a grandmother.

ETA: I cant say this is something I'd be willing to give as a grandma either. I want to be around, babysit, help out, of course. But we are having children on the early side with the thought that we can work hard and chase after them while we are young and enjoy the fruits of our labor (grandchildren, money, time) when we are older and don't have as much energy. I'd help out my kids in a pinch like my mom does for me, but I don't know that I'm up for raising grandkids, barring a bad situation.

[Pollyanna]

The part about grandma leaving grandpa in another country indefinitely...that seems wrong. It's what stuck out to me. I couldn't do that to my mother.

I have a lot of help from my mom and family. In laws have offered the same if we end up near them. It makes a huge difference and bails me out of situations a lot.

Still...my mom admits she gets pretty tired out even after one day a week with N. She loves that day and rearranges her schedule so she can spend the whole day solely focused on her. My dad tries to be home on those days too, and they have a blast. A few times she has bailed me out and watched N most of the week. That seriously infringes on her life--she does it happily when she can, but it is a lot of work for her. She's only 50 and raised 5 kids, but admits it is still different. While I trust no one to watch my baby more than my mom, and even thought about whether or not she would work as the sole babysitting when I was pregnant, I realize now what I would be asking of her. I couldn't ask it. It's too much. She chose to have me, she raised me. She didn't choose to have N and gives more than enough as a grandmother.

Wholeheartedly agree. I have to wonder if you are raised as an only child and are the main focus and then go on to marry, have a child, and then mom comes to be your full time nanny if there doesn't create a person who is extremely self centered? Just a thought. Hmm, kinda like dawkters, lol.

Angie's point about families moving around is a great point as well. My mom always used to say that years ago you could always count on a family member for help with anything but with our new mobile society that isn't true or possible anymore.