Are today's physicians poorer than their older counterparts?

http://www.amsa.org/meded/studentdebt.cfm

Medical education debt is 4.5 times as high in 2003 as it was in 1984, growing well beyond the consumer price index.
While there are a multitude of causes for the growing debt burden, the most significant remains the massive increase in tuition costs across the country's medical institutions:

Over the past twenty years, median medical school tuition and fees have increased by 165% in private schools and by 312% in public schools.


From 2002 to 2003, students saw some of the largest tuition increases in history. Private school tuition increased by 5.7% while public school tuition increased by 17.7%.

All I can say is

Re: Are today's physicians poorer than their older counterparts?

Another article I found, and though know it to be true seeing in text is so sad.

Stress In Medical Residency:

BACKGROUND: Although curricular reforms have attempted to address sources of stress in medical residency, no recent studies have examined the financial or emotional situations of current medicine residents. OBJECTIVE: To question medicine residents about financial status, educational debt, moonlighting, and psychological issues. DESIGN: Survey distributed in a nonrandomized fashion to medicine residents. SETTING: All 415 U.S. medicine residency programs. RESULTS: According to the questionnaire responses submitted by the 4128 (18%) participating residents, a substantial number of residents had financial and emotional distress that could have interfered with training. The reported educational debt was at least $50 000 for 1657 (42%) of the respondents and at least $100 000 for 737 (19%). The monthly disposable income was $100 or less for 1620 (43%) of the residents, and 637 residents (16%) could not afford safe housing. Among respondents in their 2nd through 5th year of postgraduate training, 2187 (52%) had insufficient funds to purchase books and equipment, and 678 (29%) could not afford the required fees for the American Board of Internal Medicine certifying examination; 2659 (33%) worked as moonlighters, and this percentage increased progressively with increasing educational debt. Four or five depressive symptoms during residency were reported by 1461 (35%) residents. Eight hundred ninety-nine residents (23%) thought they had become less humanistic over the course of their residency training; 2347 (61%) reported becoming more cynical. Female residents were more likely than male residents to report increased cynicism and multiple depressive symptoms. Increased cynicism and depressive symptoms were associated with increasing educational debt. CONCLUSIONS: Despite recent curricular reforms, an alarming number of current medicine residents report depressive symptoms, increasing cynicism, and decreasing humanism, which were associated with increasing educational debt and a need to moonlight for financial survival. Ongoing curricular reform, legislative relief from early loan repayment, and salary increases may be necessary to address these problems.

full seven pages:

http://www.annals.org/cgi/reprint/136/5/384.pdf

Re: Are today's physicians poorer than their older counterparts?

So all I can say is, if you are having a hard time, you are in good company. I can't wait for the days of bonbons.

[Deebs]

Re: Are today's physicians poorer than their older counterparts?

When my parents' generation went to med school, there was one-rate tuition. So, med school "credit hours" cost exactly the same as undergrad credit hours. Wouldn't that be nice? Something to ponder over the next 30 years while we pay back student loans...

Re: Are today's physicians poorer than their older counterparts?

WOW Deb, that is so great for them... soooo sad for us!

[Flynn]

Re: Are today's physicians poorer than their older counterparts?

The real difference is that there was no managed care and preset rates. They were raking it in in the 80s before HMOs moved in.

Tuition rates are increasing at crazy rates for everyone. Doctors to teachers. Something needs to be done.

DH's mentor is around 55 years old. DH is 36.
Mentor said he made (AFTER TAXES) 5000K a weekend moonlighting while he was in the lab for two years. He invested well and there was his house payment (and he could have paid off his loans had he wanted to).

What did he invest in?
A small computer company named Apple and eventually he was one of the first 100 investers in Microsoft. That guy lived under a lucky star of course.

It's crazy (no offense intended) that a heart surgeon can do a procedure and is compensated LESS at times than what a radiologist does. Compensations is NUTS. Absolutely crazy.
Pretty soon the docs are going to have to pay their patients.

Re: Are today's physicians poorer than their older counterparts?

Tuition rates are increasing at crazy rates for everyone. Doctors to teachers. Something needs to be done.

No joke. My tuition will probably be a little under $10K (assuming I don't get any aid) for going to state for the first two years, then either $17K or $21K (depending on which I get into, of the two schools I am looking at) a year for my junior and senior year for my major - special education. Then for my masters, another $17K most likely. So, even taking the cheaper route of going to JC/state for credits I'll be looking at: $61K for the cheapest route, not taking in the rate increases that are sure to come. I know this is old news to all of you, but still to be a teacher with the starting income of $35,650 for a masters is... sad. I don't care how little the payments are made available, that is still outragous debt for the income made. We can't all assume everyone lives in a dual income household.

Sorry that was a side tanget - but still, so when are the democrats coming? LOL that will be such a double edged - drs will be taxed more, but maybe tuition will be harnessed some?

[Flynn]

Re: Are today's physicians poorer than their older counterparts?

Sorry that was a side tanget - but still, so when are the democrats coming? LOL that will be such a double edged - drs will be taxed more, but maybe tuition will be harnessed some?

I totally agree. I was chatting with a friend who has been done with training for two years. They make approximately 250K but chose to live near family which is a larger market -- bigger city which pays much less -- because they can .

After private schools (basically a requirement for a safe environment), a smallish house that doesn't need TONS of work in a safe area (at a whopping 1.2 mil), and loan payments....they are doing fine but the dems still quantify them as "rich" when really that's so not the case.


Docs are merely white collar these days -- and some still have to shop at JCPennys as far as I'm concerned for those white collars. Rich? I'd say more docs than ever are upper middle class.

[migirl]

Re: Are today's physicians poorer than their older counterparts?

The real difference is that there was no managed care and preset rates. They were raking it in in the 80s before HMOs moved in.

So true. My dad is a family doc, he's been in practice for almost 30 years now and (I'm TOTALLY NOT bragging here, just trying to make a point) he's made butt-loads of money over the course of his career. As DH puts it, the bulk of his practice was during the "golden age of medicine". Even though DH is in a surgical subspecialty, we'll never see the amounts of money that my dad made back in the day.

[Deebs]

Re: Are today's physicians poorer than their older counterparts?

Not to jump on a tangent here, but a teacher in the suburbs of Chicago with a masters (either special ed or high school level) is making more than most pediatricians. And, most of my friends got their undergrads in education first and had their schools pay for their grad school tuition. Now, Chicago public schools are a totally different story (which is a huge problem), but there are still places where money can be made in education. I think we're going to see less and less in medicine as the years go on.

Re: Are today's physicians poorer than their older counterparts?

Not to jump on a tangent here, but a teacher in the suburbs of Chicago with a masters (either special ed or high school level) is making more than most pediatricians. And, most of my friends got their undergrads in education first and had their schools pay for their grad school tuition. Now, Chicago public schools are a totally different story (which is a huge problem), but there are still places where money can be made in education. I think we're going to see less and less in medicine as the years go on.

I would say that there is no "money to be had" for an educator. Even professors aren't rolling in it. I don't know where your friend is working, but I'm assuming it's a highly dangerous school to have such a high compensation (one I have never heard of). I have heard of some schools paying for your masters, but that means you take your masters in the evening. I know a teacher who is married to another resident in the area, doing that vary thing. Not all of us can work and go to school in the evening, and not at all if you are married to a physician and have kids. There is no physican whom I know of whom never takes call and never works past 5, well unless it'd derm, but I don't know that either. Many of us can't swing the working and getting a masters at the same time. I know I will not have that choice, unless we have some kick butt nanny who will put in hours at that time of day. Most teachers help pay for their own supplies, barely have the money to save for future expenses, and don't have very much left to invest for retirement. I do know that I could have my school loans forgiven in some states if I work in a failing school. But once again, saftey is a huge thing you give up going to these schools. That is why flocks of educators are running for the city. While there many be less money to be made for physicians today, they are still making more than most ever will even when the debt is all paid off. I still would like the old tuition costs though

Re: Are today's physicians poorer than their older counterparts?

Not to jump on a tangent here, but a teacher in the suburbs of Chicago with a masters (either special ed or high school level) is making more than most pediatricians. And, most of my friends got their undergrads in education first and had their schools pay for their grad school tuition. Now, Chicago public schools are a totally different story (which is a huge problem), but there are still places where money can be made in education. I think we're going to see less and less in medicine as the years go on.

A teacher in the suburbs of Chicago making $80K or more?? I cannot imagine. My neighbor is a teacher w/a masters and 22 years in this district, and just hits $70 (not working in the classroom anymore - working as a trainer for other teachers). Either you know an extremely well-paid district, or some really, really poorly paid pediatricians. :huh:

[alison]

Re: Are today's physicians poorer than their older counterparts?

Yup. I heard that at New Trier (Winnetka? Or is it Wilmette?), they're making 80k.

[alison]

Re: Are today's physicians poorer than their older counterparts?

I just found this:

http://www.newtrier.k12.il.us/district2 ... /about.htm

86k!

Re: Are today's physicians poorer than their older counterparts?

That is insane! It must be bloodsport to try to get into that district. It is certainly not the norm.