an interesting perspective

[houseelf]

I met one of my dh's colleagues, a thirty-something plastic surgery fellow and mother of a two year old daughter. We had the best conversation about the field of medicine and women. She waited until her chief year to have a child and worked up until the night she delivered. She had 3 weeks off and then had to return to work or she would not have been able to finish the program on time. Apparently, the powers-that-be in surgery allow a resident to be off only 4 weeks a year. Of course, the family had to get a nanny. (Dad is a radiologist). Meanwhile, mom tried to pump at work and would have to scrub out of surgery in order to do so. Consequently, she received horrible reviews and was essentially forced to quit nursing her daughter.



She said if she had to do it all over again, she wouldn't. She is four months from finishing her fellowship and she wants to work only part time in the field. She felt that she was somewhat betrayed by her field.



All of this got me thinking about how much worse it has to be for women in medicine. Sure, it has to be hard on anyone, but there seems to be no real solutions for talented, bright young women wanting to enter the field. It certainly gave me an interesting perspective.



Kelly

This is an interesting discussion....my husband has also struggled with the pregnant colleague thing....he certainly has compassion considering he has three children of his own, but also feels that if you choose medicine as a career you should be able to dedicate yourself in the same way as everyone else during the training years. He has also had times where he has had to pick up the slack and do extra call shifts and he has felt resentful of that.....as a woman, I understand the female residents desire to stay at home for maternity leave, etc, etc...but as the spouse of a physician who has to do the extra work, I'll admit to feeling a bit...miffed about it.



It must be very challenging for women during residency...even med school if they have children during that time. We know so many women docs who waited until after residency, accepted a part-time position and then had a family...but then those women suffer too because their colleagues don't take them as seriously. At the end of the day, it is tough for women all around still. If you choose to stay at home, you 'must' be doing so because you aren't competent to pursue a career...if you pursue a career, you are looked down for your selfishness at not dedicating your life to your children, and if you work part-time, your colleagues and other stay-at-home moms BOTH don't take you seriously because you didn't dedicate yourself to either...



Bottom line...its' tough being a mom.



Kris
Time is a Dressmaker, Specializing in Alterations!

I have a close friend who went through residency (OB/GYN) with my husband, so I have gotten the female perspective as well, and it is HARD for them.



However, (I feel somewhat like a traitor to my sex when I say this) when these women are taking their maternity leave (even though it is nowhere near long enough) guess who has to pick up the slack? We were only inconvenienced by this a little bit during residency since my husband was in a large program, but now there are only three of them and one is female -- if she gets pregnant and has a baby, that means six weeks (if she doesn't need bed rest) of every other night call for my husband. We are military now, so we have no control over the partners he has or how many there are, but it is really making him think about if he wants female partners who are still having babies. Granted, a male partner could have health issues, too, but he wouldn't be choosing to have them -- do you see what I mean?



My husband's female partner just had a miscarriage, so that is what brought this whole issue up for us. He did her D & C and then wondered if he should volunteer to take call for her, even though it was the beginning of a previously arranged vacation for him. We felt bad for her, but bad for ourselves, too, you know? And a little ashamed of our feelings.....



Sally

[Phoebe]

It is tough for women to balance a career and a family, even harder in a field like medicine. Timing the decision to have a child is a difficult one.



In my husband's experiences females had children, took maternity leave and breastfed their babies during their residencies. None of them came without consequences to their colleagues. The worst experience involved one couple both in the same residency program having a child. After giving birth, the wife became ill (mostly stress related) and the daughter developed CMV (some virus) and was sick for months. When the wife was sick, the husband was responsible for caring for them both. Thankfully, they both recovered. Two out of seven residents gone for weeks at a time disrupted the residency program quite a bit. More than the extra work, the other residents felt anomousity toward the couple because they got credit for a couple rotations they didn't complete because the director felt sorry for them.



You're right Kris- it is just hard to be a mom.



Jennifer

Hmmm..... I don't know that it is a female thing entirely - in our experience it is a problem being a parent period in medicine. The latest example? My husband's program has a policy of giving fathers several weeks of paternity leave once their baby is born. Jon told the powers that be at the beginning of his year that I was pregnant and my due date. He then reminded the same powers that be six weeks before my induction of the impending birth and the date. He had told them from the beginning he was going to take all of the paternity leave he could and still finish the intern year without any additional time having to be added. Weellllll.... they went ahead and scheduled a wards rotation for him after this and then accused HIM of being irresponsible for working a wards rotation when he'd be taking time off in the middle of it. After that little incident he was put on a team as the only intern (every other team for the entire year has had and will have two interns) and capped at 13 patients per call night (every other team has capped at 5 patients per call night). My obstetrician (who works for the same hospital system) put it this way, "It sounds like he's being punished for taking time off after the baby is born." YUP! So, I am sure a few of his colleagues are miffed at him for daring to take time off once his new child was born, but the fact was he warned everyone in advance - including and especially the schedule maker(s). I see this as more of an issue of hospital administration wanting to squeeze every tiny ounce of energy out of their slaves rather than it being a gender issue. Hospital admins probably do dislike having women as residents simply because if they do become pregnant they have to give them time off. I think that if a woman gets pregnant and handles everything responsibly (ie tells the program director, scheduler, resident coordinator in a timely manner) then the scheduling problems become the fault of the people in charge. Just our most recent experience - yeah I'm a little bit hacked off about it.....



Jennifer

[Meenah]

Don't all professions have to make allowances for parental leave. I really do believe that a woman who is a medical resident deserves the same leave as a female attorney, secretay, nurse, teacher, factory worker, etc. When someone takes maternity leave, it affects the coworkers, no matter what the profession. She and her family shouldn't be penalized because she chose medicine. This is an important right women have spent years fighting for. Please don't let the fact that your spouse is an MD jade you to the realization that this is something important to all families, no matter what the education level. Most importantly, the infant shouldn't be penalized. Just my .02.

Luanne

[DCJenn]

It is true that maternity leave impacts everyone, no matter the profession. My book-keeper is about to go out on maternity leave and there's literally no one who can do her job. I have to hire someone to come in and do her job while she's out.



This means that we will have to spend at least a few weeks training this person, and then hope that they stay.



She does my payroll, all of the client's trust funds, all of our accounts receivables, all of the personnel inputting...It's going to be a huge mess. And as a supervisor- yes it's incredibly overwhelming to deal with. and yes, some of my staff are resentful. But, people choose to have children and I will do everything that I can do as the supervisor to make this a pleasant experience for everyone involved. (but I also try extra hard to make sure that the work won't land on my staff who don't have little children- or any children for that matter- I don't think that's fair either.)



I believe that the medical profession, for as much as it's moved forward- needs to examine the hours and benefits of everyone- and that includes the medical students on up through the chain. Everyone deserves time off, everyone needs a decent night's slep, everyone deserves to spend time with a newbord or newly adopted child. The "tough it out because that's the way it's always been done" mentality does nothing except force good doctors out of medicine or discourage people from going in to medicine in the first place.



There- my soapbox for the day...



Jenn

hmmm, VERY interesting topic. i will mention that in the grand rounds the other day, there were maybe 50 or more men ? (i am sooo awful at estimating crowds) and like 4 women. talk about an unbalanced program! but if you attended a nursing presentation, i am guessing it would be flipped around? (Luanne?) and i think the same stigma applies to men in that field - do you remember "greg focker" in "meet the parents"? anytime there is a cross-over into the "other gender's field," i think there is mucho tension in place - it's just not the way that things are "supposed" to be. i think as more time passes and more men and women cross over, it might get better - we can have hope that it might be easier for our daughters. none of these women are married or have children, though.

jenn - you made a good point. i think it is fair to trade the extra responsibilities and possible hours among the people that are affected by children and possible children. i hate to say this but i would be rather peeved at having to work extra hours to cover for someone who is at home with their new baby *if i had no intention of ever having kids* - since i do have every intention, i wouldn't mind at all and would hope the favor would be returned.

at the risk of making everyone mad at me, i will say that i don't think you can have it all. sacrifices have to made and they will either surface in your career or your family life. sorry, there are just not enough hours in the day to have it all. we get into the should you stay at home with your kids issue here but look at all of the women CEOs, physicians, etc - they have nannies. my next door neighbor is a nanny for a family of two physicians and she is literally with those kids all of the time! if you are happy with that arrangement, more power to you and maybe you can have most of it.

but i envision myself being one of the people you mentioned, kris! giving a little to part time and a little to raising kids - and probably not doing the best job with either but hopefully i'll be happy? unfortunately, i have narrowed my possible career fields b/c of our situation. i'm picking jobs out that i'm certain will be family friendly.

i've gone on too long!

Legally aren't hospitals required to give all employees who are new mothers six weeks of unpaid maternity leave? Now that residents are "officially" employees they would fall under those laws. Our hospital also has the same policy for new fathers - I don't know if the paternity leave is required to be offered by law or not. I DO know that since this was part of the hospitals stated policy they needed to have a system in place that takes this possible time off into consideration. My husband and I have seen a whoooole bunch of the same problems that supposedly only mothers experience happen to him and other fathers in medicine. I really, really think that this is more of a bias against people who dare have children and want to do the MINIMUM it takes to be good parents - and this is what we are talking about (the MINIMUM) than it is just against women. Perhaps the medical community doesn't understand the importance of taking care of tomorrow's society?



Jennifer

I would probably feel somewhat differently about this whole issue if my husband had been able to take time off the times I've had a baby. He was able to take a couple of days as a med student, a week as a resident, and no time at all as a staff doc with the AF. I have never been one to bounce right back after giving birth, and we are so far from our families that I have had no help afterwards. This third baby (born in September) about sent me over the edge because life (as you all know) goes on and my other two boys still needed to get to school, soccer, preschool, and chruch activities. It was very hard and I guess my resentment comes from the fact that my husband did not even have the option of staying home longer than a week, and that was the best it ever got. (interestingly enough, that was at the end of his intern year!) I believe that mothers should get AT LEAST six weeks off when they have kids, but I believe that fathers should have the option of taking that time off as well.



I don't think you can have it all, either. I nannied for two physicians while my husband was in his last year of med school. These people had four kids (7, 4, 2, and newborn when I worked for them) and their life was misery. The mom was a pediatrician and only worked part time, but even on her easy weeks, I was there about 20 hours a week, and on her call weeks, it could easily be 60 hours. She was stressed out all the time and expressed to me that she didn't think she was a good mother OR a good doctor. (I am sure she was both.) I don't know why we, as women, think we have to do it all at once. Our kids get to be school age soon enough and the opportunities will still be there.



This is just what I believe for myself, but I don't want to sound judgemental of other women who structure their lives differently. The last thing we need is for women to be beating each other up over this issue!



Sally

[houseelf]

The question that comes to my mind after reading this conversation expands upon Jennifer Streeter's comments and and Sally's personal experience--



Why is fatherhood seen as a voluntary activity which should be performed only quietly outside of work as opposed to a fundamental duty which supercedes an employment obligation?



I also am frustrated with the system as it stands. Unfortunately, I have only questions and not answers.



Kelly

[DCJenn]

You know- this profession- as with some others, still suffers so much from the vestages of the Victorian era.



Of course fathers aren't supposed to want to stay home, of course mothers will have the financial, mental and emotional capabilities to stay home; of course families will all live in the same towns and be 'the village'!



We (since we have people from the international community!) as the Western Society have made choices and evolved that had consequences that I'm sure people didn't intend.



Women's liberation was not supposed to mean that women had two choices- stay at home and be devalued by society, or go to work and be made to feel guilty. It's an extremely complex issue and there are so many factors that go in to the decisions that people make for their own families.



What does need to happen is that professions such as the medical field need to wake up and value their employees. No one is making a boatload of money anymore (which was fine, doctors don't need to be put on pedestals any more than athletes or movie stars) but they do deserve time to be with their families, even if that family is a spouse or parents/siblings.



Also, people who are physicians need to be fully trained and finish their rotations, etc. even if that means extending their residency another year. My husband had a friend in medical school who became pregnant and rather than trying to finish and pay minimal attention to school and a newborn- took a semester off, took summer break and returned in the fall. and everything worked out in the end. and everybody, including the baby was probably better off for it.



Maybe when we elect a female president...



Jenn

Sally, why was your husband not given six weeks unpaid paternity leave with the Air Force? Jon has been told that this is standard for all military employees - in fact he was told that he could have six weeks off if he wanted it since the military is actually who he is contracted with (and pays him) as long as he fulfilled the program requirements. He only took off three weeks because he would have to add time at the end if he took off more - and he can't do that since we have to be in Boston for residency on July 1. Jenn, what do you know about the military and paternity/maternity leave? I always seem to hear about two or three different answers to these types of questions - it leaves me a bit confused!



Jennifer

[DCJenn]

Well, this is not the best answer-



It may be program dependent- but my husband would only get one week of leave. One if his co-workers is taking her leave (3 weeks- NOT maternity) plus doing her elective rotation as a home study- and she is expected to submit her results upon her return.



I asked him and he said that he's never heard of anything more than one week of paternity leave, no matter what the service. But, if it makes a difference- Sally's husband and mine are/were at the same hospital. I'm sure there are 100's of pages of regs on this one!



Jenn

Relating to this, I heard an interesting opinion expressed the other night on the show "Politically Incorrect". Apparently, the director of the FBI took 6 weeks of paternity leave.....and this was highly criticized. I think men can't win!



In germany, my husband was given two weeks paid paternity leave and was able to tack on some vacation time...in N. Ireland, he was given a week plus vacation time added on...In the US, he was permitted to take 3 days!!!!!!! This basically meant that when I came home with a hemoglobin of 7.1, a child just out of the NICU and two toddlers that I had to really pull it together to make it all work. I definately believe that he bonded much differently initially with our first two children. Not having much paternity leave was really a problem....of course, a friend of ours who took his two weeks of vacation following delivery was looked down upon by many of the other residents as being too soft......It's kind of confusing....I think that we want men to become more involved in the role of fathering, but then when they do things like take paternity leave, they are criticized. Interestingly, the person criticizing the FBI director the most was a woman.



I think it's great that the military offered the time off, Jennifer. I'm sure you all were able to really benefit from Jon being home. I wonder why there are so many inconsistencies in the miliatary system? Is it depend. on the branch of the service that you are in too?



Kris
Time is a Dressmaker, Specializing in Alterations!Edited by: kmmath  at: 2/23/02 1:41:28 pm