the Middle East.... ( 1

I find myself checking CNN.com quite frequently while also trying to "remove" myself from thinking about it. I know that this is going to sound quite trivial but I find it just *unbelievable* and heartbreaking that people can hate so much. I'm the cheesy girl with the peace shirt - - -

I haven't really watched the news in the last couple of weeks. What's going on? Someone bring my uninformed butt up to speed!



Jennifer

[Meenah]

I'm also wearing the peace shirt. We went to Ground Zero yesterday - how devastating. Hate is an unbelievable emotion.

Luanne

Jennifer:

In short, Palestinian terror organizations have been responsible for over one hundred Israeli deaths since Thursday from suicide bombers. Israel has declared war and will not permit Arafat to "have contact with the outside world."

This happened as the peace negotiation talks were trying to get underway. Basically, all of the problems that they have had there for months and years are escalating - and so the international community is getting involved - and the US is trying to determine their level of involvement.

That whole situation makes me wonder what if this were occuring in the US? Suppose native Americans (of which my husband is a descendant) decided to do what the Palestinians are doing? Suppose they decided they didn't want to have their reserves as their own soveriegn territory - that they should have the entire US as their nation and all newcomers should leave their land (ie the US)? After all, they were displaced, essentially kicked out of their habitations and forced to live on tiny areas of land granted by the US govt. What if they started sending people to Chicago, Miami, Seattle to blow themselves up in coffee shops and malls? What would our reaction be? Would we be justified in using extreme force to halt those actions? After all, we did take their land away from them and killed a bunch of them in the process. Would those past actions by the US justify the killing of innocents by Native Americans if they took that action? They could very well use the same justifications the Palestinians are using against the state of Israel. Or, what if the Ainu (the original, displaced and oft harmed inhabitants of Japan) decided to start blowing themselves up in Tokyo? Every nation that exists today displaced in some manner the original inhabitants of that land. It's the way nations are built in ancient and modern times. So, for me the justifications used by Palestinians (and apologists of Palestinian violence) are a bunch of crap because these same arguments could justify terrorism against every nation on the planet! And that, my friend, is called chaos.



So, ulitimately, the state of Israel has a responsibility according to Hobbes' "Leviathan" model and Locke's philosophies of protecting its citizens - that is the role of the modern government. In order for the state of Israel to protect its citizens it must destroy not just those who have already done its citizens harm but identify and stop those who would potentially do the citizens as individuals and as a whole physical harm through violence. From every indication in recent (ie in the last few decades) history Israel has every right to suspect the Palestinians of seeking the destruction of the state of Israel and its citizenry. Therefore, I think Bush is correct in his statements that Israel is a sovereign nation and must do whatever is necessary to protect itself. The fact is that in no matter what democratic country you found yourself in, organizations that sent people out with bombs strapped to them with the intent of taking out as many bystanders as possible would be considered criminal and members of said organization punished and/or destroyed. Obviously if something like this were to happen in, say, the US, we would immediately attempt to squash criminals such as this - displaced landowners or not! Common sense dictates that Israel has been at war with those Arafat leads for many, many years now - we in the west have just chosen to be "pc"about it to protect our oil interests. There is a great deal of hatred towards Israel among predominantly Muslim nations. I know, I know, this hatred is only for the "Israeli government". HOWEVER, the Israeli government is a form of democracy, similar to our own and thus, the PEOPLE of Israel ARE the GOVERNMENT in Israel. So, to hate the "government" of Israel is to hate the people who run it - all the citizens. I strongly suspect the Palestinians understand this logic (even if those in the West want to disbelieve it) and that is why they blow up innocent civilians.



I am not going to be someone to walk around with a peace at all costs sign on my shirt. Because I do not believe that the Palestinians desire peace. In my opinion, they want the complete destruction of the state of Israel. And, I believe that Israel has every right to defend its existance and the lives of its citizens.



Jennifer

[houseelf]

it seems to be escalating again and this time we're involved. In this post September 11th world, the Middle East is not some remote place that we can feel allow ourselves to feel disconnected from, as tragic as events may be.



How is everyone doing? Are you all glued to the media too?



Kelly

Ummmm, we aren't actually going to go in and defend Israel though, are we? There were few things that I agreed with in "Stupid White Men", but one of them was that we should aid Palestine in earning "statehood" and then provide them and israel with aid....as an investment in peace...Taking sides will only make things worse...I hope we aren't going to get involved in that because we are gradually spreading ourselves too thin!





Kris
Time is a Dressmaker, Specializing in Alterations!Edited by: kmmath  at: 4/1/02 12:48:14 pm

Hi,



I'm a lurker on this board mostly but there are some interesting topics here that are making me come out of my shell



With regards to Israel and the Palestinians, I think there are some differences between the parallel of Native Americans and Palestinians. Some of the lands that Israel is occupying are still in dispute with the UN. Settlements are being built where they are not supposed to be built. The Palestinians are being pushed into a corner by many forces (including Arab nations, I might add). They are poor, with no jobs and increasingly severe restrictions on travel and education.



I have close members of my family on both sides (zionist and pro-palestinian). What I am increasingly realizing is that there is no simple finger-pointing to be done in this situation. It is a complicated situation, and I believe that both sides are distorting the facts. I see intelligent, rational well informed people on both sides- both convinced they are right. This tells me that there are a lot of deep emotions this conflict strikes in people. I am trying to keep an open mind, and read as many news sources as possible to get a more complete picture. The coverage on BBC is different than that of CNN, for example.



Personally, I think that they need to seperate the two completely at this point with international observers. Maybe 10-20 years from now when some of the immediate hate dies down, they can talk. But right now it is flaring out of control and is a dangerous flashpoint for the region.

"With regards to Israel and the Palestinians, I think there are some differences between the parallel of Native Americans and Palestinians. Some of the lands that Israel is occupying are still in dispute with the UN. Settlements are being built where they are not supposed to be built. The Palestinians are being pushed into a corner by many forces (including Arab nations, I might add). They are poor, with no jobs and increasingly severe restrictions on travel and education"



Sounds a whole heck of a lot like what the US did to the Native Americans, what the Australian settlers did to the aborigines, what the Japanese did long ago to the Ainu, what the Chinese are doing to various ethnic groups currently, what the Muslim invaders did in in the central Asian region (ie Afghanistan), etc, etc. This situation is NOT unique.



Every news broadcaster is a human being with opinions and an agenda. Every news station/program has to be funded by some person/people with their own opinions and agendas. Thus, there is no such thing as "objective" reporting. Granted, different points of view, but I would argue that true objectivity does not exist and cannot exist. I have watched the BBC news programs and see clear contrasts with US based news programs. Clearly there is a difference in agenda between them and I prefer the US news programs. As I understand it, other Middle-Eastern news programs, such as "Al-Jeera" take this bias even further (although since their aren't English versions of these programs I have to rely on translations from the BBC and the various American news programs). Don't assume people in America are not informed and do not watch foreign news programs - many of them do.



Jennifer

Let me add to my list of "displaced" persons: native tribes in Mexico (where discrimination against those of darker skin coloration due to more "Indian" in their blood is still raging - even in families such as my in-laws), native tribes in virtually every Central and South American country (I've heard first hand accounts of this from friends who have witnessed it in Argentina and Peru specifically). Also, don't forget South Africa (among Europeans and native Africans- btw one of my best friends is Africaans). In addition their are MILLIONS of displaced persons from various tribes in Africa who are discriminated against, their land taken away, etc, etc. Let me reiterate this is not a new phenonmenon - it is simply getting a whole lot of attention in the Western world because the Islamic countries are taking sides and control much of our oil sources. In addition, there is a strong, heavily influential Jewish community in the US and that adds to the US' interests in the area.



It's odd that the term "zionist" is brought up. Virtually ALL of Jewish descent believe that God has perserved the area around Jerusalem as theirs for as long as the world exists. I would argue that most Jewish are "zionists" in that they believe what their scriptures say regarding this matter. Therefore, to wage war agains "zionists" like it or not, is to wage war against all Jewish people who live in the area which they believe God bequeathed unto them.

"Don't assume people in America are not informed and do not watch foreign news programs - many of them do."



I'm sorry that I added this because rereading your post you clearly did not state anything to this affect. I got a bit defensive because I am so incredibly tired of hearing this assumption which plays along into the "if you don't watch the BBC then you aren't informed" which is unbelievably incorrect.



Jennifer

I have two points to make really quickly because I must go study:

1. Violence never solves anything. Ever. Whatever outcome this new wave of violence will have, it will have repercussions.

2. I think it's unfair to categorize this as a fight between "the displaced people of Palestine" and Israel. The people responsible for the deaths in Israel are from the select groups of terror organizations. An overwhelming number of Palestinians are peaceful people. And because this is between terrorists and Israel, Palestine should not be made to suffer.

The major difference in agendas by news organizations would be due to potential profits. The US broadcasting system is *completely* dependent on profits which I would argue has the tendency to lean them towards sensationalist news-telling, "anything to get the viewers" and/or whatever is in line with who is footing the bill - the European broadcasting system is completely dependent on the government and is based on the public service model.

Yup, the BBC is supported by government interests in Great Britain. Interesting to note that there is a much more influential immigrant Middle Eastern community in Britain than there is in the US. The BBC is subject to bias as well - on the part of those who control it. The British government is heading in a certain direction (arguably quite liberal) and the BBC goes along with a great deal of the reasoning used by those who control its funding.



Violence is NOT a good thing, I agree completely. However, go back to what I said about the role of government- it is to defend its citizens. That is exactly what Israel is doing and it is exactly what the US would do if in a similar situation (see my little analogy above regarding what if the Native Americans decided to get all their land back, ie the entire North American and South American continents to be exact). Unfortunately these human bombs are causing a situation where military force must be used to halt the violence. So, who's at fault? The people blowing up women and children purposely or the government who is doing its function of protecting its citizens and their best interests? There might very well be Palestinians who don't feel those of Jewish descent should all be blown up, unfortunately polls taken in Middle Eastern countries show that support for terrorist activities is very high. If the other nations of the Middle East would like to stop the violence I'd think they'd be attempting to ease the problems the Palestinians face - ie after decades of living in "camps" these other nations refuse to aid their Muslim Palestinian brothers through educating them, feeding them, even helping them become citizens. Things have spiraled out of control in Israel - because of the need to confront definitively a culture of terrorism.



One other note: the American public school system has for the last couple of decades invested a great deal in teaching the younger generations "moral relativism". In other words, there is no right and wrong and we should be "understanding" of criminals, terrorists, murderers, etc in the interest of being "fair". Unfortunately this leads to an acceptance of violence and violent cultures - such as what is occuring when you have Americans saying we should be "understanding" of individuals who blow themselves up in order to splatter women and children all over the sidewalk, of men who ram airplanes into skyscrapers, of people who kidnap reporters and kill them. They are all of the same, evil group. And yes, it IS evil to strap bombs to your body and walk into a group of people who's only "crime" against you is breathing the same air you do and walking on the same dirt. That is why I completely support action taken to destroy organizations that support such murder. And, as far as it not being the entire Palestinian cultural group which supports this: Does Arafat (the leader of these "security forces" which he hires and commands which like to blow up innocents) not represent the Palestinians as a whole? How do these terrorist organizations manage to recruit so darned many people willing to blow themselves up among civilians if there isn't a culture of violence and terrorism existant among the Palestinians at large. Obviously this doesn't mean there is not a minority of Palestinians who wish nothing more than to just get on with their lives. Unfortunately there is such a large number of them who desire NOT to do that (including their leaders) that something must be done. It's common sense: If a group of people on the whole are supporting or joining terrorists then that group of people needs to have action taken against it by the government whose job it is to defend its citizens against those very crimes.



Jennifer

Something else that has been bugging me of late: If the Palestinian leadership and all those who support, aid, and abet these mass murderers really cared about the Palestinians as a whole - would they do these horrendous crimes that would put the entire group of Palestinians in danger of having action taken against them? My point is that those who commit these crimes are doing so heedless of the few among them who are peaceful. They are teaching their young, innocent children to blow themselves up in order to be "martyrs". They are harming their own peoples, family, and culture. I truly believe that if Palestinians were to have their own nation with the current culture of violence in place that nation would take very little time to either implode or become an oppressive dictatorship (which it already seems to be leaning towards the latter should Arafat be the "leader" of such a state). I do feel sorry for the Palestinians because they have fostered this evil among themselves and then have the hypocrisy to cry "foul" when action is taken against this violence.



Jennifer