Hannity and Colmes....whoa!!!

Did anyone else see that last night? They had a debate and brought in some leaders from Israel and Palestine...and Sean Hannity nearly had a stroke......It was very similar to some of the debate that we had, but it was WAAAAAAAY out there in terms of people keeping themselves under control!!!



Kris
Time is a Dressmaker, Specializing in Alterations!

Didn't see it, but it sounds very entertaining. OK, is Hannity the "conservative" one or is it Colmes?? I know it's probably for effect, but don't they both like to play devil's advocate against each other? Sorry I missed the excitement - especially someone stroking out!



Jennifer

You missed a GOOD one, Jennifer. I've never seen it get that hot. Hannity was supporting Israel and demonizing Palestine. Colmes was taking the middle road....trying to see both sides of the issue. They had an Israeli diplomat on and Hannity was just schmoozing him, while Colmes tried to get in a few SECONDS of airtime asking tougher questions...but then, they had a Palestinian Ambassador come on and Hannity was screaming at the top of his lungs...he wouldn't let the guy talk and then started accusing this leader of spreading lies on his show. The ambassador kept trying to interject and pointed to our own state dept. information and hannity threatened him if he kept talking! Wow....It was way out there!!!! (Maybe they'll play it as a re-run)!



Kris
Time is a Dressmaker, Specializing in Alterations!

Do you ever wonder how different the rest of us (i.e. not just Hannity) really are from those people on the other side of the globe who always seem to be trying to tear each others throats out? What if, by an accident of heritage or birth, it was us living over there?



I consider myself lucky to have been born in Canada, but even here we have this French/English thing that boils over once every 15 years or so. Being from Ontario I feel I can sort of understand the Quebec mindset --- or at least realize that, as a major trading partner, a neighbouring province would suffer some economic dislocation if they actually did separate. My dw is from Western Canada where there is considerably less tolerance for things French-Canadian. I've had a few heated discussions with my father-in-law on the subject, and now studiously avoid the topic when he is around.



Getting back to the problems in the Middle East, if attending funerals for healthy teenagers was a regular part of our week, how tolerant would we be?



-- Steve

I know what you mean.



We lived near Belfast, Northern Ireland for a year and my best friend there is Catholic. By virtue of their birth, her children were unable to attend the best schools, were barricaded into their homes once a year so that the Orange Men could march down the Garvaghy Road to celebrate their triumph over the catholics. They were discouraged from doing well, were told point blank that they couldn't REALLY be doctors or scientists, etc...and the police force protecting them is all PROTESTANT.



It certainly gave me pause to think! My husband is Catholica and I am protestant...and they considered us to be living in a "mixed marriage"....very, very interesting....



Kris
Time is a Dressmaker, Specializing in Alterations!

Kris,



I've a confession to make: I'm not sure who Hannity and Holmes are. But it sounded like a really good discussion topic.



Are they the guys who used to come on CNN later in the evening and talk about the most laughable politcal quotes of the day -- one of them with greying hair and the other in a bow tie? (We used to get CNN a year ago but have lapsed back into basic cable service.)



In any case, you.ve certainly gotten at lot closer to one of the world's hot spots that I have. At least in the Irish case, there appear to be a few encouraging signs(?). Not so in the Middle East.



-- Steve

They are actually a Fox news team that do a regular debate. I only catch them from time-to-time, but they have some great debates.



Things seem hopeful in N. Ireland, but I don't think the reality is much diff. than in Israel/Palestine...at the end of the day, the British (English) do not want to relinquish any control or basic rights to the Catholics (Irish). The police that "protect and serve" in N. Ireland are all protestant, career perspectives aren't encouraging for most catholic youth...there is so much pent up hostility and resentment that peace will be hard to find. The brits want the iris catholic group Sinn Fein to give up their arms, but they aren't willing to give the party a say in the negotiations and aren't willing to allow catholics to have an equal position in society...



It's so complicated everywhere, I guess....



Kris
Time is a Dressmaker, Specializing in Alterations!

Kris,



I had always thought of "the troubles" as: some Irish are Catholic and some Irish are Protestant and for some reason they can't figure out how to get along. I've since stumbled across a website explaining that there were no Protestants to speak of in Ireland until the 1600's when Oliver Cromwell decided to colonize the place to help assert Britain's claim to 'feudal lordship' over it. (Even so, its hard to tell people whose roots go back to the 1600's that they don't belong.) When Ireland gained independence in 1920, Irish Protestants convinced Britain to hang on to the largest section that could be defined that would have a 2/3rds Protestant majority. And so "the troubles" continue.



What does it mean for us here? Well if Quebec ever does vote to separate, there will be some sections in the west, south and north of the province that will beg to stay in Canada. It is probably best for them to either join Quebec or move to the rest of Canada. A compromise solution would do no one any good in the long term.



- Steve

Well, from what I understand, after Oliver Cromwell crushed another Irish rebellion this resulted in anglican protestants coming over from britain. The policy at that time favored protestants and they were encouraged to settle there. After WWI started, there was also an industrial hub in N. Ireland which brought more protestants.



N. Ireland didn't officially separate from Ireland proper until the end of the 1800's (and an official split wasn't made until the 1920's?), because the protestant minority was fearful of being taken over by the catholic majority in the south.



The religious communities became pitted against each other in the North and the radical irish republican army, who opposed the split of North and South attacked the protestants...



The problem, as I see it, is that the majority of the people in N. Ireland are Irish Catholic and the minority are British Protestant (at least this is what I experienced in the few communities that I was able to see)....yet the British Protestant control the police force and have access to all educational opportunities.



There is still segregation taking place in N. Ireland. Catholic children go to catholic schools, protestants to protestant schools, and they are easily identified by uniforms. The catholic children are picked on when taking public transportation and learn from an early age that they might end up cleaning the rooms in the hospital, but they won't likely become a physician. It is very weird to see. Every year, the Protestant Orange Men march through the Irish-Catholic neighborhoods with their flags and music to celebrate their defeat of the irish....and it is a truly disgusting display to see people so many years later still gloating.



My dear friend, Patricia, lives on the Garvaghy Road in Portadown and each year because of catholic protests the street is barricaded so that the orange men can't march. This results in violence, police barricades and some summers, they have had to have food, etc flown in by helicopter ....and the orange men come back again and again each year demanding to have the right to march through this neighborhood.



btw...I'm protestant, not catholic..in case you think I'm just defending my own beliefs....



It is very interesting, it really is..and I think that if Quebec decides to separate that there may be some problems for the individuals who don't want that. How would Quebec do economically though on it's own? How would they support their healthcare system, etc?



Sorry to be so long-winded!



Kris
Time is a Dressmaker, Specializing in Alterations!

Kris,



It's unforunate that "the troubles" are seen as a religious conflict. It is really a conflict between two diffierent cultures and their religious affliliations just happen to be the easiest way to identify them.



From what I've read, it was originally a 2/3rds Protestant majority in Northern Ireland (in 1920) but it is getting close to numerical parity, and it is only a matter of time before it too becomes a Catholic majority. Small consolation when the future minority is frightened and desparately trying to hang onto the past.



-- Steve

Quote: Small consolation when the future minority is frightened and desparately trying to hang onto the past.





Wow...well said, Steve! It is very sad for the people living there because the majority of the protestants/catholics (I hate breaking it down by religion the way I am....) just want to live in peace. It is a minority of people that continue to disrupt the peace process....certainly there is a lesson here to be learned as we consider our involvement in the Middle East....though I fear that history is doomed to repeat itself again and again......... :/



Out of curiosity....What do the Canadians think about the US involvement in the Middle East right now and Bush's ability/inability to manage international affairs? (Don't be afraid to be honest).



Kris
"I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I intended to be."
Douglas Adams

There are Canadians on both sides of the Middle East issue, just like in the US. I personally think Bush is being too soft on Israel, probably to satisfy a political constituency. I was hard to take Israeli claims that "Arafat has to do more to stop terrorism" seriously when they had him penned up inside a building. I was even more surprised to hear senior US officials repeat it. However, I also have heard from some apparently objective documentary programs that the Arafat really did have a revolving door jail system (Arrested today, dinner at home with the family tomorrow) and was trying to appear more firm with militants that he really was.



I am somewhat pessimistic about peace in the Middle East any time before the next Israeli election. I was cautiously optimistic a year a half ago about the slow but steady progress toward peaceful co-existence. But that was before some prominent opposition politician tried to prove that he could do whatever he wanted to near the Wailing Wall in Jerusalem. The Palestinians reacted to his actions, and moderate Isrealis reacted to their actions -- ultimately by putting that politician into the prime minister's office.



Making peace in the Middle East will be hard at the best of times -- it has to start with people on boht sides who try to provoke peace, not anger.



- Steve