Worries about Socialized Medicine?

[McPants]

Re: Worries about Socialized Medicine?

The LAST thing we need is any less intelligent people going into medicine. You cannot equate being intelligent with not caring, it just doesn't make sense. Just as I cannot equate caring with being an idiot yet I know many in medicine that care a lot but I wouldn't want them anywhere near me or my family. In the end the whole package is, of course, ideal. However, for me and mine I want the doc that knows what they are doing, can be objective, and isn't looking at his watch to see when it's time to go home.

I did not equate being intelligent with not caring (or at least I didn't intend to); I was thinking more about the incentives towards going into medicine. What I'm saying is that people who are only in it for the money may not automatically be the ideal caregivers even if they happen to be extremely intelligent. After all, they didn't choose medicine because saving a life or curing someone's illness makes them happy. If we lose a few people with money as their only incentive (though note that I didn't say doctors would be likely to earn less than most other people - this would never happen) then I don't think the people that replace them will automatically make the care worse. Wait, are we actually disagreeing here?

Of course I realize that we're talking about some serious stereotyping here. Doctors are all individuals, there's no either-or, etc. You know what I mean.

Re: Worries about Socialized Medicine?

But in Sweden do they graduade without debt...? I thought that education was paid for with their taxes...which means it would be a lot easier to stomach the lower compensation in the end perhaps. I am finishing my Masters in Public Health so the MD BF and I discuss this on a regular basis.

[McPants]

Re: Worries about Socialized Medicine?

But in Sweden do they graduade without debt...? I thought that education was paid for with their taxes...which means it would be a lot easier to stomach the lower compensation in the end perhaps. I am finishing my Masters in Public Health so the MD BF and I discuss this on a regular basis.

Excellent question - you're right that education is paid for through taxes, however there are hardly any Swedish parents that would create a college fund for their offspring, so generally speaking students take student loans to cover their costs of living. Of course they don't accumulate anywhere near as substantial a debt as U.S. med students do, however, in general Swedish doctors don't become wealthy. Sure, they earn enough to make a comfortable living, but unless they form private clinics which is very rare, difficult and politically hazardous, they'll never be rich.

It should also be added that in most European countries students often begin medical school at age 18, which of course also influences student debt. Over here, medicine is an undergraduate degree so there's no need to take pre-med courses or anything like that. The gf, who studies here in Northern Ireland, will technically receive a MB BCh BAO which is essentially a bachelor's degree in medicine, surgery and obstetric arts. Of course, they're still referred to as Dr., however, but I digress.

Re: Worries about Socialized Medicine?

So is there an additional degree you can get beyond the bachelors equivalent or is it just a completely different system? I studied abroad and lived in the Netherlands and I remember being very confused about what you are referring to now. Thanks for the info

[McPants]

Re: Worries about Socialized Medicine?

So is there an additional degree you can get beyond the bachelors equivalent or is it just a completely different system? I studied abroad and lived in the Netherlands and I remember being very confused about what you are referring to now. Thanks for the info

Much like in the U.S., you can conduct research in order to qualify for a PhD (or an MD which is essentially equivalent to a PhD but few people apply for it because it's often confused with the U.S. MD in international settings). This goes for the UK; in Sweden when you finish med school you get a "Läkarexamen" which isn't really translated into a Bachelor or Master, etc, but gives you the status of physician. You can continue towards a PhD there too.

Re: Worries about Socialized Medicine?

What McPants said!

Regarding wait times, what about the length of time that the uninsured have to wait to see a Dr in the ER? At the hospital here, it is so overcrowded that these sick, sick, patients are waiting in the waiting area, there is not even a gurney to put them on. Many of their sicknesses or conditions could have been prevented if they had had the opportunity to see a primary care physician. Taxpayers are still paying to treat these people!!! It is just being done in a way that is both costly for the taxpayer and harmful to the patient. Annie is right. It makes no sense at all.

I will always think that "socialized medicine" is better, because it is what I grew up with and to me it is "right". For the same reasons most Americans will always be against it, so I don't think any drastic changes will happen here. I don't think there will be any massive reductions in salaries that people fear. Maybe primary care physicians might start being compensated fairly?

In Canada, where my DH hopes to practice, primary care physicians make more than they do in the US. It is true that some of the higher paid specialties here make less up there (but still more than the primary care docs). The divide is smaller. ER docs make about the same as here. We are not worried about paying off our 250K + debts on an ER Dr salary in a "socialized" country. We will not have a mansion or a Mercedes but we will be comfortable. But then my DH certainly did not go into medicine for money. Anyone who puts themselves through this residency crap for money is crazy IMO!

Re: Worries about Socialized Medicine?

So is there an additional degree you can get beyond the bachelors equivalent or is it just a completely different system? I studied abroad and lived in the Netherlands and I remember being very confused about what you are referring to now. Thanks for the info

It is a completely different system, but if you have a MB BCh BA is equates to MD in the US.
The post-graduate/residency training is also completely different.

I personally think that age 18 is too young to make a decision that you want to be a doctor, it leads to a lot of people going down that route because their parents push them into it or because they got good grades, rather than striving for good grades because they want to get into medicine. So, it is one area where I actually think the US system is better

[McPants]

Re: Worries about Socialized Medicine?

I personally think that age 18 is too young to make a decision that you want to be a doctor, it leads to a lot of people going down that route because their parents push them into it or because they got good grades, rather than striving for good grades because they want to get into medicine. So, it is one area where I actually think the US system is better

Agreed, 18 is too young in my opinion too. The gf's decision to go into medicine stems almost entirely from the two reasons you mentioned above and I'm far from certain she'd make the same choice if she were to decide on her future today instead.

Also, not every student will be emotionally suited to dissect human corpses at age 18.

[Meenah]

Re: Worries about Socialized Medicine?

Annie, you are so right. I am working as an Adult Nurse Practitioner and 50% of my patients are primary care and the other 50% are primary and they also have diabetes. I am working on my Diabetes Certification, and it just amazes me how severe this disease is becoming.

As far as socialized medicine, I'm hoping Obama will appoint Senator Clinton as Secretary of Health and Human Services!!!!!

Re: Worries about Socialized Medicine?

I grew up in NY but have lived in Italy for the last 10 years so I have a pretty decent experience with both systems IMO.

That said, in Europe today, no country offers only 100% public care. If you can afford it and if you prefer, you can go private. For instance, we are expecting a baby right now and I see my OB privately. But the delivery and all my basic tests are covered by the national healthcare system. We chose to go private for a variety of reasons but we have friends who are OB/gyns who work in the public system who maintain that my care would be just as adequate if not better going entirely through the NHS... and it would have been 100% free versus the 4-5 k euro we are spending out of pocket.

Regarding waiting times, each country deals with it in their own manner. Here, there is a master list of maximum waiting times and if you cannot get an appointment through the NHS in under the time listed, the NHS will pay for your private visit.

I don't think the quality of care I receive here is any less than I would receive in NY. Then again, perhaps I am biased since we have access to all the best doctors in the city. I think that the small inconveniences are a minimum price to pay to ensure that every single person residing in this country, be they citizens or not, has access to healthcare.

[Sheherezade]

Re: Worries about Socialized Medicine?

My step mother broke her wrist while vacationing in Rome. She was examined, X-rayed, radiological consult and had the bone set in under two hours. My father and stepmother are both physicians in the States; they were shocked at the high quality care she received. It was my Dad's favorite story from the trip. He said her follow up visits in FL after she returned were much more difficult. This was a surprise to him. He has always maintained that the U.S. system was superior to European systems. Not so in this case. :huh: Anecdotal, but big raves for the Italian care in my family.

[Rapunzel]

Re: Worries about Socialized Medicine?

We were just having this conversation with a friend who lived in Australia for a year. He would never, ever, ever want to go back to that system of socialized healthcare after his family's experiences there.

Since I have had my own taste of socialized medicine I've been less than thrilled with it. We opted out of the socialized (kind of an HMO) option of the military medical insurance system this time around. It's been a VERY good decision. Oh, there are so many messed up things to discuss with the United States' most obvious form of socialized medicine! (That would be military medicine, savvy).

Anyway, I've go a dh over here worried that when he's done with one socialized system he's going to be facing another one. Out of the frying pan and into the fire! Yippee!

[PrincessFiona]

Re: Worries about Socialized Medicine?

I'm a proponent of some type of universal health coverage. I think that there should be both public and private health insurance options and that no one should go without health insurance that covers the important basics. No one should be bankrupted by disease, lose their insurance in the middle of treatments, etc.

Having lived in both the UK and Germany, I've had a chance to 'live' the different systems. I had the public insurance in germany. I never waited for services if I needed them and I would honestly equate my care for the most part to the level of care that I've gotten in the US. Americans might have trouble accepting 4+ people to a room though...I didn't, but...we have grown accustomed to our single rooms and all of the bells and whistles.

In the UK though, Thomas did see some very disturbing things. One problem was that when we were there in N. Ireland, there was basically 1 scanner for the whole of N. Irleand. If you thought your patient might have a brain tumor, it was a fight to get them in for a scan in a reasonable amount of time (less than 2 months!). He was called to a code at one hospital and the tray didn't have the meds on it...they didn't have them. The patient died and Thomas freaked out that something like that could happen.

Also, dear friends of ours live in the UK proper and they have a little girl that has suffered from terrible bladder and kidney infections for the entire 5 years she has been around. She is the size of a 2 or 3 year old and her GP refused to send her to a specialist. She finally pushed the issue and had some scans done (and she was treated quite badly about forcing the issue) and it turns out her daughter now has rather severe damage to 1 kidney and mild damage to another from reflux. That would not have happened here whether you were on medicaid or had private insurance.

Also, this same person was told by her GP that she had skin cancer...and they made a biopsy appointment for 8 weeks later. In the meantime, she came here to visit. Thomas called up a derm friend that saw her gratis and it was NOT skin cancer.

:huh:

I think we need to look at what works and doesn't work in Canada, the UK, France, Germany, Sweden, Australia, etc...and then figure out how to craft something that will work here given our culture and health care system.

Medical student loan debt should be forgiven if we switch over.

Personally, if I could go to med school, I'd be willing to work for 60,000/year if I didn't have student loan debt.

[ladymoreta]

Re: Worries about Socialized Medicine?

My father and stepmother are both physicians in the States; they were shocked at the high quality care she received.

Did they use their private insurance for her visit? My husband was born in Scotland, and his mom got amazing care during pregnancy and giving birth, but it was much different from what most women got there (even in the same hospital) because she had private insurance. Also anecdotal, and a completely different country, but just curious. It was still super-cheap - just a few hundred dollars out of pocket, I think.

Re: Worries about Socialized Medicine?

My father and stepmother are both physicians in the States; they were shocked at the high quality care she received.

Did they use their private insurance for her visit? My husband was born in Scotland, and his mom got amazing care during pregnancy and giving birth, but it was much different from what most women got there (even in the same hospital) because she had private insurance. Also anecdotal, and a completely different country, but just curious. It was still super-cheap - just a few hundred dollars out of pocket, I think.

They don't even ask you if you have private insurance in Italy. Hospitals have nothing to do with private insurance here. The way it works is that if you want private coverage as well, you pay out of pocket to the hospital then the insurance co reimburses you. Some insurance companies with front you the money but it's rare and it depends mostly on what level of coverage you choose when you take out the policy.