Hypothetical Legal Question

[TulipsAndSunscreen]

For all our lawyers out there:

So let's say you wanted to make yourself a little garden out front of your condo. Let's pretend that the aforementioned garden needs to be ringed by rocks or a wall of some sort so that the topsoil will not all flow away. So, this rock costs about $500 at the store because it's probably trucked in from 3 states away. But if you hypothetically grabbed some of the pieces of slate that are strewn about the woods near your house (not part of a trail, obviously but literally just sitting in the woods), would you be breaking any laws?

In the olden days, this is how they built walls right? I mean I realize that taking rock and selling it would be illegal but it just seems stupid to BUY rock when there's perfectly good rocks sitting there doing nothing. I'm just not sure what laws you'd be hypothetically breaking though I'm SURE there is one. I'm too much of a weinie so we'd probably buy rocks if we could afford it but we can't and I want a garden so bad I can't stand it. So, legal scholars, what's the verdict?

[DCJenn]

Not a lawyer but I'd guess that unless the woods are marked as private, go ahead and take the rocks.

Jenn

[NYCHoosier]

Not a lawyer, but I imagine it would depend on state/local ordinances....unless you're stealing them from a national park.

If I were you, I'd probably take them. Hypothetically, of course.

[MrsK]

So let's say you wanted to make yourself a little garden out front of your condo

I think your legal issue starts right here. The area out front of your condo is probably a common element owned by all the unit owners. You own the space inside your unit, paint to paint, floor to ceiling. A single unit owner may not obtain exclusive possession of a common element, wall it in, or landscape it. You need to review your declaration of condominium and get a clear understanding of the boundaries of your ownership interest.

[HouseofWool]

Goodness how I love OUR lawyers here!!!

[TulipsAndSunscreen]

Well we've checked with our condo co-owners and everyone's fine with the garden. It's just the acquisition of stone that's holding us up.

[MrsK]

It's not sufficient to check with the condo co-owners. If your declaration does not specifically allow it, you need a resolution from the board of directors of the association permitting the garden.

[GrayMatterWife]

I think your legal issue starts right here. The area out front of your condo is probably a common element owned by all the unit owners. You own the space inside your unit, paint to paint, floor to ceiling. A single unit owner may not obtain exclusive possession of a common element, wall it in, or landscape it. You need to review your declaration of condominium and get a clear understanding of the boundaries of your ownership interest.

ITA. Based on how your story started, I thought your issue would be a battle with your condo association, not about where you got the rocks!

I am not sure that your most pressing issue is whether you committed criminal theft, civil conversion, trespass, or some other violation by taking the rocks. First, I'd make sure that you were allowed to build the garden there in the first place.

Are these rocks made of some super-valuable material or something? That is, even if you wrongfully obtained the rocks, why would you be concerned that anyone would care?

[Sheherezade]

I know what you are talking about. We've got garden centers around here that sell boulders and rocks to build stone walls and rim gardens. They are natural rock - and they can be pricey. On the trails I walk each day, you can see literally thousands of these rocks in the woods. Some are partially buried, some are just sitting on the ground or on the edge of a stream. I've often wondered why anyone would pay 30-40 bucks for a rock they could find out camping - except for the convenience factor. Who wants to haul a few rocks at a time out of the woods?

That said, we can't all go pillaging the rocks and plants from the forest. (At least, not all at once.) My rocks are in state forest or on village owned land. I'd imagine that there would be some legal implication if I made a big "withdrawal" from those sources. If it was just a boulder, I don't think the ranger would care. 10 boulders? Yep. I gather sea glass all the time and the rangers admire my finds with me. I think it is a question of scale as well as the source. You could ask the town engineer if you could clear some rocks for him/her if it is township property.

[TulipsAndSunscreen]

Well we live in a 4 unit building. We have a company hired for maintenance, to escrow our dues, pay joint bills like water and basically to referee if something goes wrong. But they have no jurisdicion about making the rules. So in this case, there's no "condo board" to ask.

I agree with the idea that taking one rock is ok, 2 tons of rocks might be frowned upon. The fact is, we're willing to haul them up, I just don't know if it's legal. But that's why I'm trying to identify the law we'd be breaking.

[GrayMatterWife]

The fact is, we're willing to haul them up, I just don't know if it's legal. But that's why I'm trying to identify the law we'd be breaking.

Someone owns the property that the rocks are on. If you're not the owner and you enter the property without permission and intentionally, at a minimum, you're committing misdemeanor trespass. If you also take the rocks, then you also are committing, at a minimum, civil conversion if the rocks have any value (the wrongful taking of property of another with the intent not to return it). You may be committing a crime (probably a misdemeanor) in the wrongful taking, depending on how civil theft is defined in your state. You may be committing other petty crimes resulting from the act of trespass and conversion--for example, the destruction of private property (if you do any damage in the course of obtaining the rocks) or even disturbing the peace if you get caught and the situation turns ugly when you're confronted. Also, if you commit the act at night ("under the cover of darkness"), you may find yourself in more trouble in some jurisdictions. And whatever you do, don't take anything that could be construed as a weapon (for example, a hoe, a knife, etc.).

A lawyer who specializes in criminal law might have better or more fully developed ideas on all of this.

Of course, you also could take the rocks and no one would care. Or that might even be happy that you hauled the stuff off their property.

[MrsK]

Tulips, I don't mean to be an obstuction but there has to be a declaration or some document that governs your building. Is the building part of a larger project? If so, there will be an association that governs the whole project. If you plant a garden without the proper consent, it can be a very big and costly headache for you. You can be fined, your unit can be liened, the lien can even be foreclosed. Perpetual non-exclusive possession of common elements is a very basic tenant of condominium law. Also, if you are in Cleveland Heights, the city may have ordinances regarding this matter too. Our LL was fined $600 for cutting down a tree so it's good to check it out.

I know this does not seem important because of the informal management of your building, but this is really an important threshold issue. The consequences of building a garden without proper consent can be much greater than the consequences of taking a couple rocks.

Really, it's the same concept. The rocks in a public park belong to the public so your intuition is telling you that there may be something wrong with taking them. Even if you asked every person in the park if it was okay, those people may not have authority to allow it. The lawn outside your unit belongs to all the unit owners in your building or project -- perpetually which means that it belongs to their successors and assigns who are not yet there too. There may be something wrong with "taking" possession of a part of the lawn. Even if you asked every person in the building or project, those people may not have authority to allow it.

[MarissaNicole]

how many rocks are we talking about here? and do you know who owns the property where the rocks are located? those would factor into my personal and non-legal decision on whether or not to take them... but I am guessing it is a lot of rock if it would otherwise cost your hundreds of dollars!

[Sheherezade]

Why don't you ask around and see if you can find out who owns the woods you are considering as your source? Then, you could just ask.

[Momo]

I say look into window boxes and the upside down tomato plants I see on TV ...I know I sound like a smart ass, but seriously it would be easier... no?

Oh but then again maybe it's against the rules to have window boxes or plants hanging from porches/balconies?! :huh:

Good luck