Is the US crazy????

[PrincessFiona]

this is ridiculous...and it sheds some light on why we are losing support in the UN by the day....

The Bush administration tapped HOME and work phones and emails of key security council administrators from the UN office in New York Countries like Chili have come out and said that they will never support the US again. And hey...not only this...apparently we're trying to threaten people into agreeing with us.....since when can you wield diplomacy with an axe?

Check out this article...it was written in the London Observer...keep in mind that the UK is/was our supporter.

http://www.observer.co.uk/international ... 99,00.html

You know...Turkey used to be a strong ally of ours...I'd like to know what really happened behind the scenes to make them not only not offer us their country but to also now say that they will vote down the resolution. Something is just not right....

This isn't meant to start a political debate, btw...it doesn't really matter where we stand on the issue...to the left, right or center....this is just a factoid being sent out to evaluate. Has anyone heard any other news stories?

Kris

[PrincessFiona]

You know

And I feel like I'm on a bit of a rage about this...It isn't the UN that is going to fade away...it is the respect and esteem of the US...War bs aside, I'm very concerned about what Bush invading Iraq against international law (w/o UN agreement, this could be interpreted this way) will do to US/European relations...gosh..US/World relations...I don't want our wonderful country to suddenly be viewed as being a bully...and I want a safe, secure future for my family. Instead of increasing peace, it appears that we are about to embark on a very black period in American history....and I wish I knew all of the behind-the-scenes stuff going on.

I want to have faith in our politicians....and I have to say that I now feel that I can not trust any of our elected officials...that bothers me.


Kris

[PrincessFiona]

oh yah...

and did you know that we are torturing prisoners of war in guantanamo bay?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dy ... -2002Dec25¬Found=true


I'm disgusted...I have lost faith in our system...These are bad guys...but we have broken international law...if other countries do things like this, they are held to the Geneva
Convention ( http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm )...and you know what..I think that we should be too.



Does everyone hate me now???
Kris

[SueC]

Of course not! You sound more informed than I am! I want to learn more about what is going on and I've been listening to NPR in the car, but the more I know the more it stresses me out! I know burying my head in the sand isn't the answer but I don't see how laying in bed at night trying to make sense out of what is going on is going to help either. I'm not even sure what the point of my reply is??? I agree that it shouldn't be a divided issue based on what our political affiliation is. The facts are the facts and if only I knew what the facts were maybe I could make an informed decision of where I stand. I do know that the possibility of war with a country led by someone "less than rational" scares the sh*t out of me! I also know that the US is not viewed as some valiant hero by a lot of countries--something that we are taught to believe from the time we are in elementary school!!! Anyhow, that is just my two cents--which is probably net even worth 1 cent since I don't know what I'm talking about!!!

[Rapunzel]

I think the United Nations is about as valid an entity as the League of Nations was. It's a ludicrous, hypocritical farce of an organization. The United States should stop pandering to nations that sponsor blowing up US citizens/targets and withdraw from it entirely.

Then, I am all for the United States just staying out of every other nation's business. Thomas Jefferson once warned that the United States should stay out of the "affairs of Europe" with no compromise and what wisdom that was! We're damned if we do and damned if we don't so, I say let's stop giving countries aid (after all a lot of the time that aid just goes to dictators building up armies and weapons rather than to starving, needy people), let's stop "rating" other nations on their human rights abuses (ie let them run their own countries and naturally develop the attitude that human life deserves dignity), let's stop telling other nations how to run their governments/industries/militaries and expect them to do the same (ie leave the US the heck alone). Let's admit that only nice guys play nice and we can't expect everyone to play by the nice guys' rules (ie the Geneva Convention which most nations don't adhere to anyway ).

American idealism only applies to Americans because America is uniqe and we should stop trying to make the rest of the world America (a militarily strong, democratically free nation where people tend towards wealth and prosperity, high education and social progress). Why bother? We should focus on correcting the problems we have (such as maintaining our nation's integrity by not torturing prisoners like just about every other nation on the earth does) because that is what America is all about - change in a positive direction, acknowledging mistakes, learning from them, and doing better in the future.

Of course, we'll still have people hate us just for existing so, if we are attacked we should swiftly attack whoever punches at us and then withdraw. We should make our defensive blows swift and deadly enough that no one will want to mess with us.

International law bedamned - I didn't vote for anyone in the United Nations. They have no authority or jurisdiction over me or any other US citizen according to the United States Constitution.

Kristen, I'm honestly surprised when you say, "and I have to say that I now feel that I can not trust any of our elected officials...that bothers me." I mean, I got the drift you didn't like our elected leaders to begin with (Bush comes to mind first). So, why are you surprised that you don't trust him? I didn't trust Clinton - many Americans haven't trusted their elected leaders (especially the president) for the last decade! I mean this isn't like a lightening bolt or anything. In fact, if you look throughout American history you find a certain percentage of the American population that doesn't trust their elected officials - that's why we have a turnover rate of our elected officials in the US. That's also the feelings the "Founding Fathers" had - distrust of government officials. That's why we have checks and balances with three distinct branches of government and the ability to choose our leaders periodically.

Many would say we've been in a very black period in American history since Bill Clinton took office (and then proceeded to use his actual office space as a brothel). Many would say that we've had a very black period of American history since drugs became much more commonly used and abused in the 60s. If you want a safe, secure future for your family then teach them history in order to avoid repeating past mistakes and then hope your children are elected to positions where they can implement what they learned. That is what I am doing.

Bottom line: we can't make the world as free, wealthy, or stable as the United States. The rest of the world resents us attempting to do so, therefore we should leave them all alone, stay out of everyone else's business, expect them all to stay out of our business, and concentrate on improving America (industrially, socially, and economically).

[fluffhead]

While I agree with Rapunzel that the UN isn't anything to be proud of, I have to say that blaming problems in the US on Clinton's philandering or on hippies' drug use is probably no accurate.
Whether we go to war or not should be based on whether there is imminent danger of Iraq's bringing us undue harm. Hopefully the govt has the facts and is acting based on them, rather than on special interests or on saving daddy's reputation.
I don't think it's correct, though, to bow to pressure from the UN or other countries if we think that attacking is an appropriate policy move.
The UN has shown itself in the past to be more a tool of various blocs than a true union of nations.

[PrincessFiona]

well...

You are right in saying that I don't support Bush and haven't...though I never really felt...distrustful...I just didn't choose to be a supporter of his. I also thought good things about Powell in particular until some recent things that I've read....

I have to say though, Jennifer..America isn't really unique...we just like to think we are....Every country is unique..as is germany, france, italy, Turkey...and even Iraq....they all are unique in their own right...as to wealth and education....in the US..wealth reigns above the right to basic access to dental and health coverage...and we score below most of the world in international tests of math and science...we import many of our leading scientists from other countries.

Americans are about change and bettering themselves, but American politics is often about "me, me, me".

People don't hate us for just existing..they hate us for doing things like suporting dictators that we want and need while condemning others...for doing things like providing Saddam Hussein with Anthrax seed to fight Iran...and then turning around and condemning him for having weapons of mass destruction. They condemn us for constantly saying that we are the "greatest nation in the world" as if we stand above them...because it reflects arrogance and not acknowledging mistakes or cooperation..or equality with other nations.

We helped establish the Geneva Convention and the UN..if it is a weak and useless organization..and it may be..we have contibuted to it's fall as much as anyone else....we have used it for our purposes but are criticizing it when it is not working for us the way that we want it to...instead of doing some self-reflection to make positive change. I hope that the govt officials involved in these scandals in our country lose their shirts...I want them held accountable..just as we would hold other countries accountable...just as you or I would be held accountable for crimes that we committed.

Bottom line: we can't make the world as free, wealthy, or stable as the United States. The rest of the world resents us attempting to do so, therefore we should leave them all alone, stay out of everyone else's business, expect them all to stay out of our business, and concentrate on improving America (industrially, socially, and economically).

Perhaps we should stop being so egocentrical and self-absorbed and try and learn from other countries as well...we aren't the only free country in the world that is successful and has brought about positive change....and yes, I agree...we should let others have the freedom to live their lives the same way that we want the freedom to live ours.....we don't want other countries coming in to tell us how to run our elections and what to do with our natural resources...let's just start taking care of business at home.

I think this is the last I'l be able to say on this without having a stroke. 8)

Kris

[PrincessFiona]

PS

I just have to say that I'm sorry for my opinions...I really am...I am even more sorry that I lack the self-control to just simply not express them

Kris

[mommax3]

Kris,

DO NOT be sorry for your opinions!!!!! They are valid and your right to speak (type ) them is guaranteed. I don't happen to agree with most of them but even so, I would fight for your right to express them.

I do agree that we as Americans tend to be a little egocentric, but I have a hard time thinking that we owe the UN our obedience. Anyway, it was a UN resolution that Saddam is not complying with, and if the UN is not willing to back up their own resolution with action, what good are they in the first place? The whole thing with Iraq is like when you tell your kid "this is your LAST warning" every 10 minutes -- how effective is that?

I trust Bush a whole lot more than I did Clinton, but I have to admit I am skeptical of anyone who makes it that far up the political ladder -- they don't make it that far without getting a little "dirty" in the process, in my opinion. Still, whether or not I trust him, he is what we've got and he has my support. The situation with the prisoners does bother me, and I agree that if they have been mistreated, there should be consequences for those responsible. I don't care what other countries do to their prisoners, we should hold ourselved to a higher standard.

As far as Turkey goes, what I have read (and admittedly, it isn't much) is that Turkey is concerned about the Kurd population and that their country will be overrun with Kurds trying to get back to Iraq if Saddam is defeated. I don't know if that sheds any light on their refusal or not -- but I did read that they wanted the U.S. to promise to help them keep the Kurds "in check" once Saddam was overthrown.

I think that war is inevitable at this point and from my perspective as a military dependent, I have heard of way too many Dads and Moms being deployed to not want to get this over with. Babies are being born without their daddies there, kids are losing teeth, learning to ride bikes, etc. without one (or both!) of their parents there to celebrate with them. Our armed forces are over there ready to go, and I would just like to see us get this over with so that they can come home soon. Hopefully all of them.

Sally

[PrincessFiona]

war

Well, I grew up as a military brat and I do feel a strong sense of allegiance to our military..I feel very much for our military men and women...but I still feel that this situation is not right.

Israel hasn't complied with many, many UN resolutions and we aren't waging war on them.....

It's such a complicated issue...

I think some of my anger and upset stems from the arrogance that I hear most days on the radio/tv, etc...this "We're #1 theme"...before I lived in europe, I didn't question the fact that we were the 'greatest nation in the world' and that everyone aspired to be like us (not true, btw)..I believed it as gospel truth...it took living in these countries and learning their culture and traditions to see that there were other perspectives and ways of doing things.

Since we came back to the US, Thomas has been actively discriminated against because he is a german citizen and as a result a foreign medical grad (almost feels like a dirty word typing it). He was not allowed to moonlight despite because his german medical education was seen as 'second-rate'. At the same time, he was able to boast the second hightest USMLE I and II scores of any of the docs in all residency programs. Just to blow all stereotypes, the resident with the #1 USMLE scores..and the hightest scores my hubby has ever seen was from Mexico. He went to med school in Mexico City and was a rhematologist and researcher. He had been working in the US for several years but had to re-do both his residency and fellowship in order to practice clinical medicine again. He is now faculty at Ann Arbor .I've heard plenty of rude comments about the fact that 'our medical education is #1..." As if most scientific inquiry and the beginnings of medical education didn't have many of their foundations in europe So...I feel a tad aggressive on many levels...

Ahhh...isn't life complicated.

In any case, thanks for letting me voice my thoughts....

Kris

[fluffhead]

Babies are being born without their daddies there, kids are losing teeth, learning to ride bikes, etc. without one (or both!) of their parents there to celebrate with them.

now this sounds more like a medical spouse quote - are you sure you're talking about military couples?

[Meenah]

I was really frightened last night after listening to our president. I for one think he is a cook and I'm not afraid to admit it. Clinton had a really screwed up personal life, but that is his business.I think we wouldn't be in this mess if he were still president. Before you attack me me for these views (those who would), it is my priviledge as a US citizen to have my views and to express them, and to respect the views of others. Did you know that it is "punishable by death" in Iraq to criticize Sadam? I respect everyone's opinions, and I would never force by beliefs on another. What a great place we live in. I want my children to have the same opportunity.
Luanne

[PrincessFiona]

families

Babies are being born without their daddies there, kids are losing teeth, learning to ride bikes, etc. without one (or both!) of their parents there to celebrate with them.

In Iraq, babies are being born right now that will fall victim to collateral damage by US troops or will be orphaned as a result of that same collateral damage. My dad and mom (both vietnam vets) are quick to point out that collateral damage is a part of war...but more innocent civilians died in our most recent effort in Afghanistan than were killed in the WTC...

Children in Iraq are dying of leukemias and other cancers caused by Depleted Uranium missiles that the US fired at tanks in 1991. The radiation contaminated groundwater and soil...The mothers of these children can't even get the appropriate chemotherapy because of the embargo....The Pentagon readily admits using these weapons in the Gulf War and plans on using them again...would you drink water contaminated by uranium?

Maybe the best solution is to just bring the troops home.

Kris

[Rapunzel]

Yeah, well, hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of children have died and are dying in many nations on earth: Iraq, Sudan, Uganda, Rowanda, South Africa, Afghanistan, China, etc,etc, because of the actions of those nations' OWN leaders. I guess it is a much better idea to let those nations go about their business and kill who they will through starvation, civil war, poor economic policies, outright genocide, etc than to have the US intervene. Like I said, damned if we do, damned if we don't.

Bill Clinton did have some very serious personal problems that pointed to a lack of integrity, a lack of wisdom, and a lack of self-control. Does anyone honestly believe a person can compartmentalize to the point that those character traits don't bleed into all aspects of their life - including their job? That's the big reason I didn't trust Clinton - point simple: he showed himself to be untrustworthy in a wonderfully public way (don't you just loved how he embarrassed his wife by not at least being discreet?).

I agree with Sally that all politicians seem to compromise themselves at some point. Although I would make an exception with Mass's new governor (I run around in the same circles as his son's) - that man is getting castigated in the Boston press and by Boston politicians for being - heaven forbid! - HONEST and FIGHTING FAIR! It's so fun to see the reaction of people who've played politics their entire careers encountering someone who doesn't - it's like watching them meet an alien species! Anyway, what I find refreshing about Bush is that what you see is pretty much what you get with the man - he admits his mistakes, says he was wrong, and then doesn't just promise to do better - he actually does! I like Bush because he is not a master with words - he speaks by his actions. Now, I don't agree with all of his actions at all. But, I feel like I can pretty much rely on him doing what he says he will do. That's about as good as you're going to get with career politicians in my opinion.

America IS unique. Any student of history can see that. America is the longest running and most successful TRUE democracy in the modern world. By far even the poor in America are much better off than most citizens of other nations - that accounts for the phenomenon we have had for the last century of being a magnet for immigrants (many from Europe btw) and our current influx of "illegals" from south of the border. My mother-in-law (immigrated from Mexico) is one of those who came here because of the uniqueness of the US and the opportunities she would find here that she would not find in Mexico or south of Mexico. In her visits to Europe both as a tourist and as a college professor this opinion of hers has been upheld and solidified. One need only read the Federalist papers in their entirety to appreciate much of what is unique about our United States. Those debates and pamphlets give a well-documented record of what historical, political, economic, and philosophical forces contributed to the building of what at the time was a "grand experiment" and has become a nation highly unique in the modern world.

[Rapunzel]

And, Kristen, you do realize that much of Europe is what it is today because of the United States. Just a very few examples: My aunt lived (was born there, in fact) in Germany before the "Wall" came down. It was pretty darned awful. The United States was a leader in the world against communism and today my aunt can visit her relatives on the other side of what was the wall. France would not be where it is today if the United States had not entered WWII and then provided incredible economic support post - WWII (including the forgiving of astronomical debts). Let's go back further, though, with France. Remember the American Revolution? Well, many of the philosophical principles so beloved to people like Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson that took root years before action was taken influenced de Tocqueville and many of those who started the French Revolution (which was fairly more murderous and vengeful than the American Revolution was byfar). Even today nations in Europe have formed a "European Union" loosely based upon our United States in order to form a more powerful entity in the world.

Historically the United States IS unique because it is the forerunner of modern democracy. Not since Rome has a democracy (democratic republic to be exact and to the point) existed on the earth with more power and influence. Now, Rome had a nasty habit of trying to make the world Rome by invading other nations (hmmmm, the Gauls of France come to mind). The United States' "Empire Building" and "Colonialism" - both reviled and with good reason in the developing world - PALES in comparison to what the nations of Europe did to those countries. Western Europe for much of modern history equalled abject subjugation including the "Empire Building" and "Colonialism" mentioned above. The US is unique in that it didn't go to the extremes Europe did in it's subjugation of other peoples and nations. This isn't ancient history, either - let's not forget! If we want to look back further, the Crusades which are STILL a huge sticking point for much of the middle eastern nations evidently was not an American phenomenon. Long before Columbus Western Europe was turning Jerusalem into a blood-bath. Some terrorists seem to forget their history.

So, the United States is a fantastic, wonderful place unique in its history and treatment of the world. I say unique because it has until recently followed a different path in world affairs from the former rulers of the universe - western Europe. Of course, maybe that's why some of Europe has its panties in a wad over the recent events surrounding Iraq. They are realizing just how archaic and inane and even hypocritical their choices and opinions are.

Like I said, let's follow Jefferson's advice and stay out of Europe's affairs.