Your insight please?

[MrsK]

Sheesh, 99 posts and I'm just starting to read this thread. I'm only on page 1 of the responses.

First, I'm with Abigail. It's hard being a medical spouse, in part because of budgeting but more so because of the time apart from our husbands and families and friends. There are very few people in the world that don't have to budget.

I know that we will never have a paycheck that is larger than a resident's annual income. Money will always be a factor. In our case, my DH actually gave up a well-paying job and also the possiblity of inheriting a profitible family business in order to pursue medcine. Sure, we have our bucket list for wishful foreign travel and I've been mentally decorating my dreamhouse since I was 8 (daughter of a GC and grown up in the paint business) but we are not in it for the money. I'd tell an aspiring doctor the same thing that I tell aspiring lawyers. Don't do it for the money because you will always work too hard and earn too little for the hours that your work.

And, Kris. OMG, I cannot believe that jerk said that to you and your DH. Just goes to show that even people that know better are idiots.

[PrincessFiona]

Worth it?

Hmmm.

I'm not sure of how to answer, and I reserve the right to change my mind, but as a total package I would argue that no, it wasn't worth it. Are there financial rewards? yes. Having said that, the time that he was away from our older children can never ... ever ... be made up for. If I were to tell you that he has the same relationship with his older children as his younger children, I would be lying. The difference is actually striking. They suffer as does dh. Part two: Because of training, we didn't really plant roots until we were both relatively older. As a result, we are simply not really integrated into the community that we live in. People know us and we know them...we take part in community events, but we aren't a part of the community. Does that make sense? Finally, I do not feel that for me, personally, there is any amount of money (including earning a resident's salary in a month LOL) that can make up for the fact that I was never able to pursue my own passions. It has been way too much about medicine and not enough about an equal sharing of passions and interests ... to my detriment. Are my interests and passions less important than his? Is it fair to ask one person to set themselves aside for the passions of another? I don't know.

So for now, I don't really see how this journey was "worth it". I have a friend whose husband teaches German. She teaches special ed. They have a truly collaborative marriage and share childcare and housework...she does the cooking. Do we earn more than they do? Yes...but they both do quite well ... as in approaching an FP or pediatrician's salary well. They have a better life as a couple and as a family and both people were able to pursue their passions.

I think I would have been much happier in that kind of a marriage, tbh.

Again....I reserve the right to change my mind.

Kris

[rainbabies]

Where is the one month salary an attending makes that equals a residents yearly salary coming from? What did I miss?

[MrsK]

It was the first of the bloggers "how did it feel?" questions.

[peggyfromwastate]

Worth it?

Hmmm.

I'm not sure of how to answer, and I reserve the right to change my mind, but as a total package I would argue that no, it wasn't worth it. Are there financial rewards? yes. Having said that, the time that he was away from our older children can never ... ever ... be made up for. If I were to tell you that he has the same relationship with his older children as his younger children, I would be lying. The difference is actually striking. They suffer as does dh. Part two: Because of training, we didn't really plant roots until we were both relatively older. As a result, we are simply not really integrated into the community that we live in. People know us and we know them...we take part in community events, but we aren't a part of the community. Does that make sense? Finally, I do not feel that for me, personally, there is any amount of money (including earning a resident's salary in a month LOL) that can make up for the fact that I was never able to pursue my own passions. It has been way too much about medicine and not enough about an equal sharing of passions and interests ... to my detriment. Are my interests and passions less important than his? Is it fair to ask one person to set themselves aside for the passions of another? I don't know.

So for now, I don't really see how this journey was "worth it". I have a friend whose husband teaches German. She teaches special ed. They have a truly collaborative marriage and share childcare and housework...she does the cooking. Do we earn more than they do? Yes...but they both do quite well ... as in approaching an FP or pediatrician's salary well. They have a better life as a couple and as a family and both people were able to pursue their passions.

I think I would have been much happier in that kind of a marriage, tbh.

Again....I reserve the right to change my mind.

Kris

Sigh. I know this will be how I feel about it all in the end.

Kris, I think your dreams are just as important as anyone else's. But you've had to be the parent, the one who's "on call" all the time. And you have done an amazing job, and your children will honor you for all that hard work you've done.

Life just is... life I guess.

[GrayMatterWife]

I know I sounded harsh re: the blogger, and I stand by my reaction. I found her blog unimpressive on several levels. And regardless of whether my opinion offends, I am still entitled to it--and it was solicited. I would not have offered it except for the OP's thread post. But I also recognize that I did not offer any suggestions for how survive the deprivations and stresses that many suffer in residency. I did not mean to sound as though I think that dreaming is a bad way of escaping. It's perfectly normal and totally understandable. I do it--and every single resident and resident spouse/SO that I know does it. My concern was when you take dreaming and start expecting the unrealistic as an entitlement--which is what she sounded like to me.

OK, I am going to tread very lightly into offering something about us, personally.

CAVEAT: Please don't yell at me and suggest that I am saying that other people have struggles because they do not have a moral center in the way they approach their lives. I AM NOT SAYING THAT. I am not suggesting that this is how everyone should feel, or that how we approach things is superior--morally or practically--to how anyone else does it. I just thought I might share where I'm coming from. It is not so much "advice" (I am not sure I have any beyond what has already been offered in this thread and in other threads); it is just an explanation of how I survive and evaluate our choices and sacrifices.

My husband and I are religious--and, by that, I mean that we believe in the tenets of our faith and try (but often badly fail) to practice the morality that comes from that faith. I'm an Anglican; he grew up nondenominational/sometimes Southern Baptist, but his parents are extremely evangelical and with a very Protestant view. Now, we certainly aren't the best Christians out there--we have a lot of flaws. We try to be devout, but often fail. But, this being said, our faith is an important part of our world view, our marriage, and the reason for our lives...and the reason for DH's career choice. We believe that DH was given certain gifts--his type of intellectual strengths, certain personality traits, etc.--that makes him a very good fit for medicine, and specifically, the type of medicine he practices. We also believe that God has NOT blessed him with certain gifts that would make him a good fit for other fields of occupation or other subspecialities in medicine. We don't personally believe that he was necessarily "called"--in some kind of "higher purpose" sense--to go into NSG, and that to NOT have gone into NSG would have somehow been in denial of God's will or something. God can make use of you in lots of different contexts. But we do believe that we (both of us) have a responsibility to try and discern how we can best offer/share our talents to do good work for other people, sharing the blessings of our talents.

I have never really thought deeply about whether it was worth it. Maybe that makes me a shallow person, or at least a really un-self-reflective one. We sort of assumed that, if the measure of satisfaction was whether it was worth it in any measurable way, it wouldn't be. We just see how what a sense of peace God has given us about this decision and the required sacrifices, that it reassures us that we made the right choice. On the other hand, if we had little peace and our marriage was deeply stressed or our kids seemed to be suffering, I can guarantee you that would call us to question whether DH is using his talents in a way that is consistent with his faith. So, I guess I'll never know if it was worth it; I can only hope that we accomplish--at least in some way--what we intended when we set out on this adventure--to share DH's gifts.

[spotty_dog]

We are four years out of training though and I STILL have moments when I am so thankful for where we are in one moment, guilty the next, and pissed when comments casually thrown my way hint that my life is charmed and easy. I'm almost comfortable in my own shoes post training. Almost.

This pretty much sums it up for me. I have so many emotionally charged issues surrounding the money thing that perhaps there's not anything the blog post could have said without irritating me.

[PrincessFiona]

Your insight please?

Certainly faith can play a role in decisions. If prayer makes you ok with putting aside your own god given gifts then hallelujah (and pass the wine). I mean no offense, but I also know people who could accept the loss of their child as God's will ... and frankly, I can't go there.

Generally speaking, I believe that dh has been able to use the gifts he has. I have not. I sit alone in my biggish house much of the time wishing for a simpler, different life.

Abigail, would you feel the same if your dh's career robs you of your job and professional identity starting right now? Will you give up you to make sure dh hones his gifts to the fullest?

[houseelf]

Playing armchair psychologist here, but I believe that the original blogger accidently (and most unfortunately) brought on this malestorm of emotion amongst our otherwise typically nurturing members because of her unfortunate perpetuation of some of the lifestyle stereotypes associated with medicine. It is one thing when someone like Joe the Plumber wonders about the joy of writing five figure checks to a favorite charity. Heck, this makes Joe feel less emasculated by "Importand Dawktors" for making *slightly* less money over the course of his career. At least Joe wasn't selfish by "abandoning" his family as Kris' frenemy suggested.

On the other hand, when an insider inadvertantly inquires about the fabu lifestyle, it feels invalidating to those who have come within inches of losing their identities, careers, families, minds, or marriages to the bitch of medicine.

If the blogger is a lurker (or even member) here, please don't take this personally. Every one of us who has been here for any amount of time has been misconstrued, said the wrong thing, and created controversy (knowingly and unknowingly). Heck, there are a few of us who show our bottoms with alarming regularity. For the most part we're harmless and fairly supportive. You happened to hit upon one of the five perennial knock-down-drag-out topics. Next up: Should I SAH or WOH?

Next up: Should I SAH or WOH?

Love it! How about next up after that: when is the best time to have kids--in residency or after residency?

[PrincessFiona]

Your insight please?

Next up: Should I SAH or WOH?

Dahling, why would you work at all? You found yourself a dawkter.

Seriously though, I think you are right. It is curious though that some of the responses were so negative. It surprised me and made me sad for that blogger.

It taps back into the ass whooping, butt cheeck slapping mentality.

I feel like certain criticisms need to come from a genuine place of caring and respect or shouldn't be spoken out loud. If there was genuine concern for the poster I think the commentary would be kinder.

If comments don't come from a place of caring and respect, well ... It's worth examining why we feel so negatively. Is it more our issue than anything else?

Obviously, we are all entitled to our opinions though.
A few times it was mentioned that bloggers from that site occasionally visit here. I'm pretty sure someone has pointed that poor blogger who was opening up to other med spouses at 2am to this post. I wonder what her response is ...

[DCJenn]

Well, whatever the original blogger's intention, there's a PhD in psychology's worth of responses here.

Jenn

[NYCHoosier]

I hope I didn't come off as judgy. I've just had a lot of time to think these past few months.

I just think it's important to remember that we all had choices here - whether or not to marry the person we did, whether or not to have kids and when, whether or not to work during training, whether or not to go into debt for a medical degree, whether or not to buy a home, etc.

I enjoy talking to other doctor spouses because we all know the training process. We've all had to deal with the alarm clock clanging before the crack of dawn. We've all faced or are facing the calendar challenges and dealing with call. There are times that are less than ideal. And I'm sure spending 80 hours/week at the hospital is pretty draining for DH. But, we all made our choices for a reason. And I don't think any of us were thinking of the wealth after training. If that's all we cared about, this would be the hedge fund wives board. (I'm sure most hedge fund wives love their husbands, too...). I think it's good to remember our reasons when the situation is less than ideal.

That was a little off-topic, but, like I've said, I've had a lot of time to think lately.

[GrayMatterWife]

Abigail, would you feel the same if your dh's career robs you of your job and professional identity starting right now? Will you give up you to make sure dh hones his gifts to the fullest?

Would I feel the same sense of peace about the decision for DH to go into NSG if it robbed me of my job and professional identity? Well, I would not be so much concerned with be robbed of my job and professional identity, as I would be with being robbed of my opportunity to use my professional gifts. So the answer is clearly: no. No way. I would probably be deeply bothered by it. "Robbing" suggests that I unwilling gave up those things or I was wrongfully deprived. DH is not the only one with a professional skill set! We both feel right now that I have gifts to share professionally. If I have those gifts but they are not used because of DH's professional choice, then that speaks volumes about whether that professional choice is really the best utilization of DH's gifts. DH 's responsibility is not simply to use his professional gifts. He also has the responsibility of being a loving and supportive husband who helps me to use my gifts. That is, his gifts should be utilized in a way that considers all the factors. The determination that NSG is the best use of his gifts is not made in a vacuum. It's not a situation where this is the ONLY thing he could possibly do that wouldn't squander his skills.

Would I be willing to give up my profession if that was necessary for DH to hone his professional gifts? It is hard to image a situation where it would be truly necessary for me to stop practicing law solely because he cannot become the best neurosurgeon he could be with me working. But, if that were the case, I would say that the problem isn't with me and my professional gifts...it's with HIM and what he sees as the appropriate use of his gifts. If he is married to me (a relationship that we believe comes before being a neurosurgeon) and I have gifts to share, he is obligated to support me so that I can share those gifts. His gifts don't "trump" mine, regardless of who makes more money or who is more educated, etc. If he honestly cannot be the best neurosurgeon he can be while supporting me utilizing my gifts, he's made the wrong choice! He would not be choosing to be a neurosurgeon because that is the best use of his gifts; he would be choosing to be a neurosurgeon in arrogance, on the presumption that his gifts are so important that they negate mine. I would tell him to take a long, hard look at what God wants from him as a husband, since he clearly would have framed the situation only in terms of how to be the best neurosurgeon. God may be sending him the message that he's supposed to be something else! Although, I will be honest: if DH came to me and said, "I really think that I am supposed to be XYZ kind of neurosurgeon, but it would require that you give up using your professional talents," I would probably take some time to think over what he said. DH respects what I do and has always been incredibly supportive and has never suggested that he can't do what he does if I am doing what I do. If he told me that and asked that of me, I would be completely beside myself. And I would have to think seriously about why he sees things this way and maybe what God is trying to tell me about myself.

Although, I suspect, in the end, I would tell him to get some perspective and see if the problem wasn't really with HIM, not me!

But, this is not to say that there may not come a time when I stop working because I believe that I am more needed in a capacity that is not a use of my professional gifts; that is, despite having professional gifts, that is not the way my time (and other gifts!!) should be used. There may come a time when I come to believe that God wants something different from me. I don't know. But that is not for my husband and his career to determine. It is about what God wants from me in the place and circumstances of my life at that point.

If there was genuine concern for the poster I think the commentary would be kinder. ...

One thing worth noting -- I don't even know that the blogger *knows* (or knew) that this link was posted here. One of our newer members came across the blog and posted the link, asking for opinions. I think she got those ... in spades.