Tragic

[Meenah]

Gee, How many years ago was that ammendment written?" How do you think our forefathers would feel today?
Luanne

I agree completely with what Jenn and Kris said. The concealed weapon law is ludicrous and very scary. I see absolutely no reason for there to be assault weapons of any kind in public hands or for people to conceal a weapon. You are just asking for someone to be shot. Of course, the fact that people can get a hold of them illegally anyway is tragic.

I don't go so far as to think people shouldn't have a gun at all at home. If people do own a weapon, they need to make sure children can't get to it. My husband does own a rifle. It is at his parents house right now because we didn't want our young kids to have any way of getting a hold of it, even though Russ had the bullets in a completely different place from the rifle. Russ would like to have it on hand again. Not for protection but for hunting if the opportunity arises or if we ever find ourself in need of food. I don't have a problem with that and actually think it makes sense to be prepared just in case. My kids are also getting older so showing them gun safety would be something to start teaching my 12 year old. Then when he comes across a gun somewhere, possibily at a friend's house, he won't get himself killed!

I feel so sad for that family. I also find now that I have a son in middle school that I am more fearful of something like that happening. Kids and guns just don't go together.

Robin

[Rapunzel]

Jennifer, Jennifer, Jennifer...

You know, the process of debate is to exchange ideas. Why, then must you become inflammatory? Your arguments are usually well-reasoned but exactly how should I respond to being compared to Hitler? Should I continue to defend my position? Shall I conform to yours? Shall I walk away from what could have been an interesting debate?

Ahhh, Answer C. No need to continue down this thread. Besides, the point is, as Kelly just reminded us, another person is dead at the hands of a child with a gun. No debate there.

Jenn

Actually, I was comparing the idea you expressed to one of Hitler's ideologies. The comparison holds - although I was not calling YOU Hitler, I was simply pointing out that ruthless dictators would very much agree with your point of view. The reason I do so is that Hitler and Nazi Germany is one very important recent example in history as to the continued validity of the "Founding Fathers'" wisdom in including the Second Ammendment to the US Constitution. What occurred in Nazi Germany is actually not that uncommon when one looks at the history of human civilization. That portion of history (ie Nazi Germany) follows a distinct pattern that we should all learn from.

BTW There are statistically more people dead today at the hands of knives and cars....

Jennifer

[Rapunzel]

As some of you may know Texas has concealed carry laws. There are statistics that prove those TX counties with more concealed carry permits actually have lower crime rates. I have a ton of info I am looking up now so I will post the specifics and where to find them in a bit (including Hitler's ideological reasons for banning guns in the general populace).

I will restate that in matters such as this history is an all important and oft-overlooked subject.

Jennifer

Historically, the deprivation of arms is required in order to subject a people. In Europe, for example, countries which fell to socialism had their citizenry subject to absolute gun control. I seriously doubt those with a good knowledge of their European history could see gun control in a favorable light.

First, regarding Hitler and gun control I included some of the verifiable words he spoke on the subject:

" The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms, history shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subjected peoples to carry arms have prepared their own fall."
--Adolph Hitler, March 18,1938

Here is another Nazi leadership view on the subject:

"Ordinary citizens don't need guns, as their having guns doesn't serve the State."
--Heinrich Himmler, 1935

And an interesting article I recently found:

http://www.xmission.com/~ranthon/hitler-and-guns.htm

Juxtopose the above views of tyrants with the egalitarian American viewpoint:

‘‘Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom of Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any bands of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States’’

— Noah Webster, 1888

Historically, the European subjection of various peoples (colonialism) has included gun control. Even Ghandi was horrified by the disarming of his people:

"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
-- Mahatma Gandhi

By disarming the Indian people as a hold the British prevented viable rebellion for many, many years in a country they basically milked.

Now, here is what the leaders of America's independence movement expressed on the subject. All of them share the same sentiments so in the interest of length I include only the most pertinant.

"No free man shall ever be de-barred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain their right to keep and bear arms is as a last resort to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
--Thomas Jefferson

"False is the idea of utility...that would take fire from men because it burns, and water because one may drown in it; that has no remedy for evils, except destruction of liberty. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...such laws serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.
--Thomas Jefferson

"...to disarm the people - that is the best and most effective way to enslave them."
--George Mason , During Ratification of Bill of Rights

‘‘I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials.’’
‘‘To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them.’’

— George Mason

The previous ideas expressed refer to the reasons a populace should retain the ability for every citizen to be armed. These ideas are rooted in history that is thousands of years old - the history of civilization itself. I am curious if anyone actually believes that people have changed so much in the last few decades that all that has been learned in written history of subjugation, overthrow, and control is to be thrown out the window? My belief is that we should learn from the mistakes of history - especially European history. This is what our "Founding Fathers" did and I believe it was inspired and wise then as it is today.

What follows is one last interesting historic example of an entire people imposed with severe gun control in order to subjugate them:


‘‘No slave shall keep any arms whatever, nor pass, unless with written orders from his master or employer, or in his company, with arms from one place to another. Arms in possession of a slave contrary to this prohibition shall be forfeited to him who will seize them.’’

— A Bill Concerning Slaves, Virginia Assembly, 1779

It may hurt the feelings of some that their ideologies most closely resemble those of tyrants and dictators in history but it always helps to put aside one's emotions for a moment and actually study the origins of ideas and actions in all of human history. There is also an atitude today to discount what humans have learned from their own history regarding governments and power because we are "modern" and thus, somehow different in our thinking and actions. There is also an idea that examples of the problems of gun control are outdated because they are several decades or even a century old. This sort of elitism and pride combined with ignorance of history is dangerous in my opinion.

Jennifer

[Rapunzel]

Here are the studies I found regarding concealed carry in Texas. For those of you who prefer solid reality to ideology these might be of interest:

http://www.txchia.org/Sturdevant2000.htm

The average male Texan who is 21 years or older is 7.7 times more likely to be arrested for the violent crimes of murder, rape, robbery, and assault than the average male CHL holder.

Looking at violent crimes individually, the average male Texan who is 21 years or older is 1.7 times (rate of 7.4 v. 4.3) more likely to be arrested for murder; 87 times (rate of 24 v. 0.3) more likely to be arrested for rape; 53 times (rate of 44 v. 0.8) more likely to be arrested for robbery; 3.4 times (rate of 202 v. 60) more likely to be arrested for aggravated assault; and 10 times (rate of 892 v. 87) more likely to be arrested for other assaults than the average male CHL holder.

No male Texas CHL holder was arrested for negligent manslaughter during the 1996 through 2000 period.

The average male Texan who is 21 years or older is 18 times more likely to be arrested for committing a non-violent crime than the average male CHL holder.

The average female Texan who is 21 years or older is 7.5 times more likely to be arrested for the violent crimes of murder and assault than the average female CHL holder.

Looking at violent crimes individually, the average female Texan who is 21 years or older is 2.0 times (rate of 1.2 v. 0.6) more likely to be arrested for murder; 2.5 times (rate of 48 v. 19) more likely to be arrested for aggravated assault; and 17 times (rate of 178 v. 11) more likely to be arrested for other assaults than the average female CHL holder.

No female Texas CHL holder has arrested for negligent manslaughter, rape, or robbery during the 1996 through 2000 period.

The average female Texan who is 21 years or older is 13 times more likely to be arrested for committing a non-violent crime than the average female CHL holder.

Notes:
Top of Page
CHL holders are required by law to be at least 21 years old.
CHL holders are approximately 80% male. Men have an arrest rate for violent crime that is approximately 5 times higher than that of women.

http://www.ncpa.org/pi/crime/pd101300a.html

In 1995, Texans got the right to carry concealed weapons if they obtained permits to do so. Since then, violent crime rates in the state have fallen.

Here are some of the statistics compiled by the Texas Department of Public Safety comparing crimes in 1995 to those in 1999.

Per 100,000 population, rates for aggravated assault fell from 429.3 to 370.

Robberies declined from a rate of 179.8 to 146.8.

The rape rate was down to 38.1 per 100,000 from 45.5.

And murders fell from 9 per 100,000 to 6.1.
Since carrying a concealed weapon in the Lone Star State was legalized, overall violent crimes have declined from 644.2 per 100,000 to 561.

As a group, Texans with concealed-weapon permits are far less likely to commit crimes than other Texans, says Sterling Burnett of the National Center for Policy Analysis. "You don't get a concealed carry permit because you want to commit a crime," he points out. You get one "because you fear crimes against you."

Burnett reports that permit-holders in 1999 were 5.7 times less likely to be arrested for violent crimes than those without permits. They were 14 times less likely to be arrested for nonviolent offenses. And they were 28 percent less likely to be arrested for murder.

Source: Benjamin Kepple, "Texas' Gun-Totin' Ways Hit by Gore, But Data Show Violent Crime Falling," Investor's Business Daily, October 13, 2000.

I thought I would quickly share some facts on concealed carry in modern times within the US.

Jennifer

[Rapunzel]

I just realized I needed to clarify that CHL refers to those with a concealed carry handgun license. I am sure most people reading the above post already figured that out, but I just thought I would clarify. 8)

Jennifer

I just edited this post because I wanted to link an interesting article on school violence and it's roots in bullying.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... V17087.DTL