Politics 3!

[PrincessFiona]

This might be a really good way to talk about politics.....For those of you out there who support Bush, what policies in particular that he has supported or put forth do you feel the strongest about?




kris

[mommax3]

I don't really have time to post right now.....but the biggie for me are his pro-life policies. This is a huge issue to me and as much as I wish it were otherwise, it ends up being a litmus test that determines who I vote for. I don't want to get in a big debate about the issue itself, because "good people can disagree on this issue", as GWB himself has said, but when you believe as strongly as I do that abortion ends a human life, then most everything else pales in comparison......

I think now I will hide for the rest of the day.

Sally

[peggyfromwastate]

I am also pro-life, and I appreciate that he seems to support the military. I also like the fact that he really struggles with issues, has supported some policies that make conservatives go crazy (such as Medicair reform), and doesn't seem to me to be the type of person who will run around after his terms are up ( ) criticizing the current administration like you-know-who (Voldemort?) Basically, I feel safer with him in charge.

I have to say that as far as politics go, my foramtive political years were during the Clinton admin, when I was in high school and starting to pay attention to that stuff. Just as my Grandpa was turned off from Republicans by their watergate scandals, so was I by the monica thing. I know that that may not be important to so many people, but I just really was nauseated by the overall behavior of Clinton, and how disgusting to think that Monica was just a couple of years older than I. I realize that this kind of thing has gone on before, but what a breath of fresh air to see the Bush family and hear the Prez talk about his wife the way he does. To me, he comes across as the type of husband who really honors his wife, and really loves her. I know many are rolling their eyes, but anyway. That's how I see it now!!!! I just trust him, what can I say.

[PrincessFiona]

These are interesting perspectives, and I'll admit that one of the main reasons that I voted Nader in 2000 8O was because of Gore's support of partial birth abortion...something I find very troubling.

So as much as I sympathize with that one particular issue, and I do, I would have to wonder what other policies you are considering, Sally?

Bush's support of the military has only been done for show, imo. I say this because the Bush administration has supported a lot of legislation reducing healthcare benefits for the veterans.

As to medicare....I am all for medicare reform, but the bill he pushed through was criminal ...again, my opinion....It raised the monthly costs for seniors, gave the pharmaceutical companies free reign on drug pricing and I think does little to help seniors. Many of them may end up getting on good medications and then when that big hole in coverage hits them they'll just stop. It is a brilliant scheme for the pharm companies though...get them hooked on the expensive drugs that they need, charge whatever you want for them, and then drop them like a hot potato for a few thousand dollars and make them pay out of pocket or quit taking the drugs. This is just another plastic turkey

I guess I don't feel quite so disturbed by the whole Clinton/Monica thing...I mean..yah, it was dumb, yah, he cheated on his wife and had in the past.....I don't condone infidelity...but it seems like half of our president's have 'done it' including W's father Think Jennifer Fitzgerald...Not that two wrongs make a right, but I don't think presidents should be judged necessarily based on their personal lives. They should be judged based on their policies...and yes, there is plenty to criticize Clinton on in terms of policy.

If we are going to talk about moral issues, how do you feel about Bush's cocaine use, alcohol abuse and DWI that he got earlier in his life?

[peggyfromwastate]

I admired Bush for addressing head on the DWI and his alcoholism, and talking about how he had changed. I believe that he's not the same party guy that he was before. I really wish that in politics in general we didn't have to go back for the silver bullet mistake that was made 20 years earlier. It's not really that interesting to me, I guess, unless said politician acts like a baby and lies about it all. That shows a lack of maturity to me... That's why the Clinton scandals got on my nerves-- because he denied everything so much. Morally, it's really sort of intangible how much I detest Clinton and why that is exactly. I think I was just really disappointed in his lack of remorse. I know these politicians are just "men" and certainly many are sleazy men, but the Clinton thing just hit me at a vulnerable point in my life. If some intern came out with proof that Bush has been messing around, there's no way I'd vote for him either. If it came out that he was using cocaine now, I'd have serious issues with that as well. But Clinton and Gore, I mean "I didn't inhale" : and Gore smoking out with his chauffeur : : wierd stuff. I know that the elevated of thinking think that smoking marijuana is no big deal, but still why lie about it so much?

As far as the military stuff, I really haven't researched it much, but I think that Clinton did not do anyone in the military any favors. I remember talk of base closings and other such issues all the time. Like I said, I really didn't pay much attention and I'm sure that Jenn could have some awesome perspective on this kind of thing, esp since she's a democrat (right???)... I'm willing to be educated!

I didn't really support the Medicair reform (my grandparents have had nothing but trouble with that system), just thought it was interesting that so many conservatives did not support it and Bush went along with it anyway, only to get bashed by the liberals... He didn't win on that issue, I guess!

Anyway, I really don't like political discussions because they seem to get so personal and people get so uptight. I don't mean to offend anyone, honestly, and I know I sound naive to bring up Monica, but when I've reflected on some of my political thoughts/beliefs I look back to this episode as one which was really disappointing to me and I beleive formative in my thinking. I was surprised by how pundits seemed hesitant to condemn the behavior, and how so many of the media made excuses for him. Maybe if I were 30 instead of 18 at the time, I would have had the reaction, "yes, he's a scumbag but so are the rest of them" which is more the attitude of my parents and even older siblings... Anyway, it was just really disappointing to think of the President that way, not to mention the desecration of the Oval Office...

[PrincessFiona]

Peggy, I didn't mean to offend you....I was just enjoying the debates that we had been having.

If it's any consolation, I'm thinking about not even voting this time around...Kerry is a zero, I don't like Bush and Nader..is just a vote for Bush.

I'll refrain from posting any more politics threads Sally...can I blame you for unleashing the beast in me?

[Sheherezade]

Kris-
I know I haven't posted in this thread (just lurked), but I don't think you've been offensive! Political discussions are always difficult. They do get personal very fast, particularly when people feel strongly about the issues or the "characters" involved. I don't think you should refrain from ALL political posts--you have a lot to offer. Maybe we should all just be extra careful and respectful of others' opinions. I think -mostly- the discussions have been ok. Heated, informative, a LITTLE scary, but OK. Just my two cents. (By the way, I think Peggy and Sally and everyone else has a lot to offer too )

Angie

[Sheherezade]

Peggy-

I don't think it's at all naive to bring up Monica. I think most people vote their gut feeling and Monicagate certainly contributed to that. I personally was not as offended by it, but I can understand anyone who was. It does go to character, morals, etc. I think anything that affects your support of a political leader as a voter IS important and merits discussion. Please don't apologize for your opinions. Believe me, I'll take an honest discussion with my friends and neighbors any day over a bunch of pundit-speak and rehashed sound bites. BTW, I was around 30 when the Monica thing broke, so I think your age comment was very astute--maybe I was too jaded already. I think the political discussion is great! Maybe this time, when the election shows all those red and blue states across the nation, I'll understand the thinking in the red states better. I do have to agree with Kris though, I don't think we have any great candidates. I have to find small-time, local politicians to support, before they get destroyed by the political machinery of our country and rise to power.....

Angie

[Rapunzel]

Dang I'm behind!!

The big things I agree with Bush on (to-date) are the "moral" issues that affect society (ie abortion and marriage). Although there is the libertarian portion of me (thanks, Dad!) pulling for absolutely no say on these issues by the federal government (ie state control over societal issues).

One thing I strongly disagree with Bush on (I know, it's an agreement thread - but since I agree with him on pretty much everything else then this is the "biggie" for me) is the "No Child Left Behind" act. HOWEVER, Bush has been incredibly supportive of homeschoolers and has gone out of his way to court my particular portion of the voting public. He just went the wrong way with the NCLB crap - what he really should be doing is abolishing the Education cabinet and turning all government-funded education over to the states (again, the libertarian in me speaking ).

Anyway, I agree with Peggy that Bush has done a good job of acting like he is in charge of the military - respecting its leaders and "peons". I also agree very strongly with his foreign policy stance - particularly his candid approach. I was reading an editorial awhile back (on the internet - maybe MSN?) that said the problem with Bush's foreign policy was that he was too honest and straightforward and that threw everyone in the foreign policy world (both in the State Dep't and foreign ambassadors/leaders). They are only used to dealing with innuendo, deceit, and mush-mouthing politicians! I absolutely adore Bush's truthful and open approach in part because it reflects my own personality (and I would hope accurately reflects the way a "true" Texan handles historic situations) and partly because it is time we got back to doing what we say and vice versa.

Regarding Bush's drug use: I don't have a problem with it since the man 'fessed up and didn't parade it as some badge of honor in order to court the "Gen-X" and "Gen-Y" vote. That annoyed the heck out of me about Clinton - that he didn't say, "Yes, I smoked marijuana and I shouldn't have." Instead he made snide jokes about it, in the meantime subtly encouraging our young people to ruin their lives with drugs. I would like to see a president in office that didn't drink alcohol, didn't smoke, and didn't abuse drugs - but that won't happen until Romney becomes president.

Jennifer

[DCJenn]

Hey all, greeting froms a state that must remain nameless, lest I have to kill you all...

My first thought is heck- the great thing about this country is that we can HAVE these discussions and disagree and get all steamy mad and then go on about life.

Anyway, the deciding factor for me when choosing between two equally qualified candidates is their stance on choice. I will always choose the choice candidate. I believe that it is no one's business what I might do if I were to become pregnant. and yes, that lack of available children domestically is causing me to pay $20,000 to adopt internationally but honestly, I wouldn't have it any other way. and yes, I will be at the March on Washington.


The Monica thing was stupid. But it didn't get anyone killed. I truly believe that Bush knew full well that there weren't any WMDs in Iraq and I believe that he lied and for that is in fact, impeachable. I don't trust him, I think he's playing with Daddy's toys and Daddy's friends. The thought of the man makes my skin crawl and I can feel my blood pressure start to raise.

Medicaid/Medicare- is about as likely to get solved as Social Security and National Healthcare. The bottom line is that Americans want champagne services on a beer budget and until people realize that their own personal priorities are going to have to change and this is NOT about other people, but about how they themselves are going to be cared for- nothing is going to happen. Politically they are all disaster areas. I believe that this country has an obligation to support those people who are not able to support themselves or their family members. Unfortunately, services are being cut across the board and its a VERY scary time in the world of healthcare.

Jobs going overseas. Honestly, this is about the dumbest issue the Democrats could be trashing. It's a no-win situation and again, people like low prices and until Americans accept that things will cost more if they're made in the USA (and be willing to pay those prices) then manufacturers will send jobs overseas.

The environment- another one of my hot button issues. I was appalled that Bush disregarded the Kyoto agreement and I believe that his pro-business stance has set the environmental supports back significantly. Drilling in Alaska is not going to solve the fact that American are addicted to their gas-guzzling cars, trucks and SUVs. We need to support the development of other sources of energy and Americans need to 1) advocate for better planning and development of their communities to ensure places for walkers and bicycles 2) support retrofitting communities with pedestrian friendly sidewalks, etc. 3) increase the tax break for people who buy hybrid vehicles (there's already one but not enough in my opinion) and 4) continue to develop technologies in automotive and home building that rely less on traditional fossil fuels.

The military- again, no one has done the military any huge favors, but part of that was the fault of the top brass themselves. They've been modelling themselves on a Cold War model for far too long and it's about time they streamline and restructure. I have no problem with base closures and I have no problem with changing to a more business way of doing things- the computer systems aren't even integrated even within the same service (much like the rest of the federal agencies- they can't talk to each other even if they wanted to!). My San Antonio health records are only accessible by SA doctors, even though they use the same program in DC.

We seriously need to institute manditory public service- either the Peace Corps, Job Corps, or the military. I think everyone needs to do some sort of civic duty and there are far too many people out there who are depending on someone else to pick up the slack. Regardless though, we by default have become the world's police force and our troops are worn out and need additonal infusions of people and support. We can't be unilateralists but we also didn't need to jump the gun in Iraq, either.

And now, since I will tell you that I'm on the West Coast, my body thinks it's 3:40 AM and I have to work tomorrow!!

Hugs and Kisses to you all, even you crazy Republicans-

Jen n

[Rapunzel]

Well, I definitely agree with both Sally and Jennifer on one point: a political candidate's stance on the life of the innocent is the ultimate deciding factor for me. I have a very difficult time comprehending how those who have carried another human life and given birth to that life can support others killing similar human life. I will absolutely never change my opinion on that and I do believe it should be a crime to destroy an innocent human life without extenuating circumstances (ie the life of the mother is in imminent danger). I can choose to murder my children or my incapacitated mother (someday when she becomes old, ill, and senile)because they hinder my lifestyle or I don't want them - but that choice is not a legally nor morally correct one. I consider abortion on the same plain.

Social Security was meant to be a temporary solution to a national crisis. Unfortunately it helped remove Americans' inclination to save for their retirements (that and the insane tax codes). As our population declines (much as Europe's is at present) we will see more and more taxes burdened upon those of my children's generation to pay for an increasingly enormous aging American population (another reason to oppose abortion-on-demand - stability of society). I remember reading that in a few decades Social Security will consume approximately 40% of the national budget!! It really needs to be done away with - slowly, yes, but surely. It is unconsitutional for the federal government to tax the citizenry for services beyond national defense, providing a currency, and paying its leaders (who are necessary for trade negotiation and their day-to-day federal responsibilities). Our federal government is a bloated, ungainly beast that needs to be tamed.

Kyoto was a huge debacle. It is absolutely laughable that the US would ever sign such a lop-sided and ill-conceived "environmental" policy - Clinton knew it was wrong and backed out of it and Bush is also wisely staying away from it. The United Nations as a whole is a huge farce as an institution and we really need to avoid signing anything through that organization unless it benefits the US on defense issues.

My perfect President ( ) would be someone who:

1) Promotes criminalizing abortion on demand unless medically-proven danger to the life of the mother is present.

2) Turns the business of education completely over to the states.

3) Implements a plan to wean the American citizenry off of Social Security - with the goal of abolishing the institution within the next 50 years.

4) SIMPLIFIES THE TAX CODE! A flat tax was booed by the liberal media but the fact is it is an economically sound (and fair) tax policy.

5) Severly reduces the amount of financial aid given to foreign nations. Instead, we should be giving surplus food produced in the US (and destroyed every year to prop up prices) to nations in need. It's much harder to turn wheat into weapons than it is to turn money into them. In many ways I am sure foreign leaders would hate this - much as the panhandler on the corner wants only money (to support his addiction) and scoffs when food is given. But, beggars can't be choosers and the United States has the means to produce enough food to feed the entire world according to the studies I've seen - so why not?

6) Tightens US borders for national defense. The borders are far too porous. The US welcomes with open arms an incredible amount of legal immigrants every year, but we need to examine our immigration policies and tighten them to protect our own economic interests.

7) Supports term limits for US Senators and Representatives. We really need to destroy the "career politician" class.

8) Supports caps on malpractice lawsuits (for the pschological awards - can't remember the term for it at the moment).

9) Treats the United Nations as an organization that does NOT have the best interests of the United States and the world at heart. It is a group of nations that are only in it for their own best interests - and for many that means destroying or severly handicapping the US. This "acting unilaterally" crap is just that - crap. The United States is it's own entity and has the perogative to act in it's own best interest WITHOUT the "approval" of any other nation - period.

10) Pours enormous resources (and encourages the states to do the same) into the development of alternative fuel sources and machines that efficiently function off of these sources. I am positive that American ingenuity can develop a much better alternative to gasoline and the combustion engine in the next couple of decades if we focus on it. We are in a highly precarious position being so highly dependent upon other nations (with dubious intentions towards the US) for the primary source of our fuel. I am sure OPEC can survive just fine without us. The American auto industry (a VERY liberal bunch of people whose union routinely heavily supports the Democratic candidates) will have a heart attack over this idea - but I am sure with some financial incentives we can help them convert their factories and assembly lines over.

Well, I'm all typed out and I have to go run my house and raise my children. Have a great day!

Jennifer

[PrincessFiona]

Well, the one thing I do admire about Bush is that he was able to overcome the indiscretions of his youth. I know that I brought that up in the form of a sort of...devil's advocate thing....but I think that he fell really far and was able to brush himself off and rebuild his life...I do have respect for that.

kris

[peggyfromwastate]

Kris you did not offend me!!! I just feel like sometimes my brain is in some parallel universe and I can't get to it... I have degenerative pregnancy brain disorder! Anyway, feel free to continue with political posts and I can truly empathize with you when you say that Kerry is a zero-- this is how I felt with the Dole candidacy way back... I also certainly hope I didn't offend anyone by bringing up the age issue 8O of Monicagate!! I only did so to emphasize my own naivety at that point of my life, really!!!! 8O 8O Oh my goodness but that remark sounds really off base...

As far as policy-- One that popped into my degenerating mind was that of tort reform, specifically in regards to malpractice lawsuits. ("pain and suffering", I believe?) I know Rapunzel brought this up, but I wanted to throw my support towards this needed reform as well.

Another thing I appreciate about Bush is that he is for tougher enforcement of existing gun laws. I know that the democrats usually want to pass more and more laws to fix the problem, but I wish we could enforce the ones we have strictly and see if that helps reduce the number of accidents-- especially those involving children. I would love to see every parent who leaves a gun within reach of their child, and their child has an accident with that gun which causes injury or death, prosecuted to the full extent of the law. The parent, not the gun manufacturer or even the legislators, should be held responsible. We had a lot of "accidental shootings" in the town I used to live in, one where the sister ended up shooting the brother, mom and dad weren't home, the gun was accessible and loaded... Tragic all around. The court took the stance that the family had suffered enough...

Anyway, keep the ideas coming b/c I am interested, even if I only compute 10% of what I read...

[PrincessFiona]

Peggy,

To say that I get carried away with my ideas is an understatement It's why my username is commymommy at another website 8O I apologize profusely for coming out with all of this political hooha. I enjoy a good roaring debate but sometimes forget that not everyone wants to debate

Muchos apologies to all.....

kris

[Meenah]

I think the debates are healthy!! Thank goodness we live in a country where we can have individual ideas and not be persecuted. I personally vote pro-choice, and this sways my vote every time. I personally don't believe women wake up and say gee, think I'll have an abortion today, but I believe without safe, legal abortions, we will be back to back alley, unsafe, abortions. Making abortion illegal isn't going to make everyone all of a sudden be celibate, that just isn't going to happen. I hope my daughters will never be in a position to seek an abortion, but if they do, I want to know a safe legal one is available.
Luanne