What should I say?

[BonBon]

I've got nothing to add, but

PEGGY!!! How the heck are you? I've missed you!! Give us all an update when you get a chance.

[Vanquisher]

Cheri,

I don't think it's fair for you to say that we shouldn't have a negative attitude about surgery.

Pardon me for trying to pass on my experiences to someone else. You experience is obviously very different from mine, but you don't have kids. Without kids (especially going into it), the lifestyle is completely 100% different. I know you "know" people who are doing it with kids, but you don't hear the arguments in their households. You don't see their kids sad faces. You don't feel the lonliness for those kids and for those wives. To the outside world, I appear very, very happy, even to my best friends that I see all the time in residency. On the internet, I am free to be a little more candid.

Absolutely, surgery CAN be done, you can survive without divorce and with kids. Is it worth it?

Further, you are in a program the heeds the 80 hour rule. Not all programs do. I can't speak for the military. How were we supposed to know that the program we matched in which seemed family friendly was hiding this servitude? I have since come to discover that a LOT of surgery programs do not follow the rule. Some do, but not all. Even if we had the 80 hour rule, honestly, I still think all of the issues would be the same.

So, pardon my frickin negative attitude, but try to have a little compassion for those who don't have the freedom that you do. If I had known then what I know now:

:!

I'm not getting a divorce. I'm not close to a divorce. There are those days..., but I love my husband, I love my family. I care that he loves what he does, but WHAT ABOUT ME??? It isn't all about him. Piss on that.

[DCJenn]

Peggy-

I'm not surprised that the miltary does a better job of managing the 80 hours- Rick's peds program was very sticky about it, too. The neurology program is doing it's best but there's only 3 resident/fellows so things can get slowed up.

He'll got another year and a half- maybe something else will jazz him.

But if not, rest assured, he'll be learning from some of the best. (Have you seen some of the articles in the Post about what's been going on over at WR and Navy for the Iraq vets?)

Jenn

and on an up note, you already survived picking up and moving across the country for a military medical education! and as you said, he'd more than likely do a residency here- so you could end up going back to the NW or not have to deal with moving them again.

[SuzySunshine]

Heidi, well I'm sorry you feel that way but I feel that most of this website has become a big negative party. I know its a great place for people to vent but I also think everyone should see that there are both sides of the story. That's all I'm going to say because I'm not going to get into a fight over this.

[Vanquisher]

I am sorry, Cheri, I will stop posting for a while.

[SuzySunshine]

Heidi, don't stop posting on my account. Its obvious that those of us with kids aren't in the same "class" and "don't understand" so we shouldn't even be here.

[Vanquisher]

No, really, I am sorry. Just because we aren't having the same responses to a situation, doesn't mean that both of our opinions aren't valid.

I really don't want to bring the general feeling of this board down and make it more negative, and I am sorry, as I have dont that.

It does sometimes feel like there is a general lack of understanding, but I also have been guilty. What works for you, works for you, and I need to be more aware of that.

I am going to take a posting hiatus for the general betterment of the mood of the board.

Truly, I am very sorry.

c'mon guys! This isn't even the debate forum!

Everyone gets to post their feelings ... I thought that was the point. No one side "doesn't count".

Things suck more some places than others, sometimes people deal with things differently than others, and life circumstances make a huge impact on how the dust settles.

[PrincessFiona]

It sounds like there are some...unresolved feelings floating about here? Do we need to open up a group therapy forum

As to the negative pity party that we tend to have from time to time . .. I think that this is a place where it is ok to come and say things that you might not say when you're busy sucking it up in real life. I know that I have come here in the past and really let loose...but in real life, I have a smile on my face and am busy being as 'supportive' as I can. Many people in my 'real life' would be surprised at how I feel about certain things.....from my perspective, this lifestyle can have it's real downside...and it generally isn't politically correct to compain about it in the 'real world'. The dawkter's wife is supposed to be a pillar of society who exudes strenth and positivity (ooooh, jenn...are you listening to this? Another topic for you!).

Though there are negative posts...and at times more than others...I actually think there is a balance of fun posts and "in praise of my spouse" posts...it's just that sometimes the negative posts can stand out because emotional posts can draw out an emotional response from those reading them.

One of the other great things about the people here is the balance of personalities and coping skills. When one person is down, there are others to support them and bring them up. We have all different coping styles, personalities and people from various walks of life....and I think that is wonderful.


Having children does change things, but not because it puts you in a different class at all...I feel so badly, Cheri, that you feel that it has been put that way here. Children are a wonderful, fabulous blessing. I did, however, notice a difference for me in my coping with residency before/after children.


In my BC days, when dh had call, I worked, went out with girlfriends or had friends over. I watched tv, cleaned my house, went and visited him up at the hospital, read and basically..vegged out. In my residency life AC, I got up and did all night feedings and changed diapers, got up earlier than dh with the baby, couldn't go out anymore with my childless friends, never managed to have a clean enough house to invite friends over, spent call nights catching up on laundry and let the dust collect on my books.

Still...I am pg with #5....children are wonderful. It did, however, make me feel less appreciated by my dh...and that is based on my personal experience with him and not necessariy indicative of how anyone else's spouse would handle it. He was busy with call and tired...and so was I. He also felt a bit displaced by the baby because I was busy caring for baby (who had become #1 in my life initially) instead of him. The meals didn't always get done, the underwear wasn't always clean on time and I had stopped working, so I forgot what it was like to be around grown-ups. Again...no regrets....life just changed.

Also...program choice really does play a role. We had thought our ID fellowship would be a 'cake walk'...instead, the program ended up in violation by the accrediting board for hiring too few fellows..and DH worked nearly every day for 2 years...It wasn't the same ID fellowship that a friend of ours did....who did have a 'cake walk' experience. I remember our friends kind of rolling their eyes at our complaints....but he practically never had call, had every weekend off, and made more money than we did. Thomas worked every other weekend for 2 years (and had to moonlight on off-weekends because we earned less than the average and needed the money because we had children and I wasn't working). He had call non-stop for 6 weeks and we couldn't go anywhere (wal-mart, grocery store, etc) without him having to 'leave real quick' to run back to the hospital. I used to email the friend of ours and she was so thrilled with the fellowship they had and I was so unhappy....she thought I was soooo negative...until she visited us and basically said "this sux".


Peggy, I agree with Cheri that they have to be happy....We did IM residency twice (once in europe, once in the US) before embarking on an ID fellowship...and everyone said we were crazy. I just felt that if we were going to take this journey, we needed to make sure that it ended at a 'happy place' for everyone. If DH said "I really want to do oncology", then....I would say "call the realtor"...

If you know what to expect, understand that there will be bumps in the road, have a support system to count on when things get tough, and also know that you will be the primary person caring for the children, and dh knows that he likely will not be spending much time at home...and you both can come up with some 'backup' family time solutions...then I guess you say "go for it". You will need help and support though.


Kris

edited to add: apparently, I can't spell today! I'm too lazy to go and fix it.

[mommax3]

Peggy,

It is great to see you! I have missed you and wondered how things were going.

You can see that this topic inspires some passionate responses! I think that you definitely need to share you concerns with your husband.....you probably already have. Does *he* have reservations about the lifestyle? If so, that is probably at least half the battle of him being able to make it work for your family, in my opinion.

My husband did not pick a very family-friendly specialty. I thought I knew that when residency began......I REALLY know it now. However, we survived residency and we are happy. DH is involved with the kids and our marriage is strong. It really can work. You will have to be able to believe your husband's priorities are you and the kids even when there is no possible way for him to live that out, due to residency demands. One thing is for sure.....after all of the strong feelings that your question has inspired, there is no way you will be going into it with your eyes closed!

Talk, talk, talk about this with your DH.......

Sally

[Flynn]

Big sigh.

Cheri and Heidi -- I think you both speak honestly and from the heart. I respect that.

That's exactly what this site is for from my perspective...to share ideas and really think about issues that surround our unique lifestyle. We are not all going to have the same experiences -- and thank goodness for that!

We can disagree or have different experiences without devaluing someone else's. So we bump heads from time to time...it's all good.

When someone posts a candid response -- they might not feel they are being "negetive" -- they sincerely might feel they are being helpful, honest, and speaking to the reality of their situation. It's hard to interpret the written word sometimes. Positive helpful passion can be misunderstood as venom etc.

I know in some of my most passionate rants I wasn't exaggerating a bit --that's why I was so frustrated. Who lives like we do on a regular basis? It's not normal, fair or anything close, and it gets the best of us down at times. I'm sure a lot of my posts could be interpreted as "negetive." (Ya think? ) All of my posts were 100% true however, so where do we distinguish between "negetive" and "reality?"

So we are honest here on this site -- vent a bit -- celebrate the small victories -- while putting a good face forward to the world. That's one reason I value this site so much. I can be honest with people who understand and will listen, and then I rally and move on.

Cheri -- before I had kids I would have thought all this "single parent" dialogue that goes on here was way overblown. I'm not saying you feel that way, but I can see how this theme might come across -- and it must get old for people who don't have children. I recognize that. Everyone's road in residency is challenging for different reasons.

Heidi -- please keep posting. I love reading them and it gives me perspective on my own life. Whether you know it or not, YOU are helping ME!!! I think taking on an ortho residency with kids old enough to miss their father is extremely brave. Any way we can help here at this site is our honor and our pleasure.

Cheri -- sometimes I wonder if you are "for real" and I mean that in the best possible sense!!!! I've never met another spouse like you in my 9 years and I'm so glad I have had the chance to read your thoughts. Your husband is a very lucky man -- truly. Your support for him seems unwavering despite the hardship it causes you. That is to be admired.

So that's my 2 cents...or 200$ as the case may be!

Please everyone keep posting away!!!!!

[houseelf]

Wowser. I'm posting on the fly, so I need to be careful here. Peggy, et. al. please read Flynn's post very, very carefully because I agree with her 100%. I hope that this doesn't become a parent vs. no kid thing, but I have to say that children do make a difference, and I believe that Peggy was soliciting advice for her situation.

In 5.5 years, we've seen three divorces at this gen surg program. I haven't been close to any surg spouse who hasn't thought of walking away a time or two or at least admitted to needing some marital counseling. Maybe the surgical spouses that I've come into contact with are all just a bunch of incapable whiners? Perhaps it is just this competitive academic program? Or perhaps there is another big suck factor that should be accounted for?

Cheri, I'm sorry that you think that the place has become negative. Please keep in mind that this is a support group, so for whatever reason people come here because something in each member's life causes them to seek support. You are correct--each of us is in a different situation with our own frailties and vulnerabilities, some related to the residency and some unrelated.

Truly, your husband is lucky to have you with your undying support. I understand when you talk about your husband's passion about surg because my husband has it too. However, his eternal quest for HIS dream has come at a damn high price for his children and me.

I can only speak about my reality and listen carefully with an openmind about everyone elses life. Truly, we will do NINE years of surg residency with children. To give you a sampling of what this entails, here goes my very negative list. I work near full time at a dead end job in the freakin' tundra to keep this family financially afloat while he pursues HIS dream. Sometimes, I execute twenty (TWENTY) day care drop offs and pickups within a week. I have stayed up alone all night long with a croopy child after working all day long. My spouse has taken three sick days in almost six years. I have taken every sick day on behalf of the kids but one during this residency. This *really* goes over well professionally. We planned conception around DH's lab years. I have taken children to the emergency room by myself, taken trips by myself, and done just about everything a normal family does by myself.

Still, I rally on my son's behalf and do everything I can to foster his relationship with his dad. I never tell him that dad will make it to his t-ball in case something comes up and I try to keep most of the marital angst regarding our next move and additional training out of his conscience.

With all of these complaints and more, I love my husband dearly. He has admitted that his greatest fear is losing me. He knows that his dream has had a high cost and it causes him a fair amount of guilt. Quite frankly, he has missed out on his own life and the precious moments of his children's life. Sure, there are a hell of a lot worse things than surgery residency and I have an abundance of things to be grateful for. The problem that I have with all of this is that this is a VOLUNTARY choice and there are other more reasonable choices. The trick is to allow him to live his dream without completely crushing me and the kids. This is why I ran the marathons and do mostly whatever the hell I please. This is why I come here to blow off steam to those who "get it". I fight everyday so that the surgery beast doesn't run this family or me over. Perhaps my standards for life are too high. Perhaps it is just about survival and damn me for wanting more.

Peggy, I wish you every luck. It is not an easy decision. Truly, surgery is my husband's calling, if you will. He loves it and is damn good at it. It is quite the catch 22 for all of us.

I'm sorry that I'm so vehemenet about this, it is just a hot bed issue for me. Hell, even DH says that if someone can be happy doing anything but surgery, they should do it. It's just not worth it.

Kelly

Recalling an old joke...

You could tell him there will be sex in the house at 7pm every night, whether or not he's there.

That ought to make the decision easier. :>

[rainbabies]

Re: Recalling an old joke...

[twinsmom]

You could tell him there will be sex in the house at 7pm every night, whether or not he's there.

That ought to make the decision easier.

Laughed right out loud at this one!!

A friend of ours recently told me to inform dh (who has a habbit of coming home after everyone is in bed, then leaving before anyone gets up) that 'spousel priveledges' will be extended to him between 5 and 7 pm. He said that dh would last 2 weeks tops before he was running in the door at 5 pm.... hmmm.... maybe I'll have to employ this concept...

As for the excitement on the board through the night - Let's all take a deep breath a have a group hug . I honestly love reading every side. I love the 'blowing off steam' posts - they help me to feel like I am a normal human being and that I am not the only person in the world who would like to spit in dh's eye from time to time. I love reading the steady supporting posts - they give me hope that I can make it through the rough times, and that there is a possibility of being strong and supportive to dh! So thanks to everyone here!!
Okay, gotta go change a poopy diaper (ahhh, the joys of motherhood ).

Jen B.[/quote]