Would s/he do it for you?

So, here is a question for all of you:

Would your spouse or significant other take a significant pay cut, relocate, accept a less desirable job, take on more childcare responsibilities, relocate etc to make YOUR dream come true?

That is, would s/he do all of the things that you have done for your spouse's medical career? And, whether the answer is a yes or a probably not, does that change your view of marriage, love, etc.?

I am curious as to your views . . .

[Gwendolyn]

I believe that if I had a dream that would yield the same financial benefit he would absolutely do it. This was a decision we made together, like choosing a more family friendly specialty. I don't think he would be any happier than I am at the moment, but...

It would change our marriage if the answer were no. We are a partnership. Assuming it is the right thing for our family, he has to be willing.

He stayed in a horrible internship year program so that I could finish my PhD program. It was a lot of sacrifice in the short run, and we are still dealing with some of the ramifications. In the long run, if I were still working on it here in Milwaukee because I moved away from my support network to do my dissertation...we would be in dire straits.

[SuzySunshine]

I can honestly say I don't know the answer to this question because I've never asked him and we've never talked about it. If I had a job that I LOVED, was very successful at and made a lot of money I'd like to think the answer would be yes or that it at least would have played a bigger part in where he went for med school and residency. But honestly I think this is hard question to relate to the medical field. If he wasn't in medicine and had could work "anywhere" like most careers than I'm sure we would have made a more mutual decision.

If we both had more 8-5 jobs than yes, he would take on more responsibility and expect things to be more equal, he'd pitch in when I wasn't around. I have no doubt about that, we worked as a very good team when he was on a more regular schedule in medical school.

Honestly none of this changes my view of our marriage. When I met my DH he knew what he wanted to do, I won't be stupid enough to say we both knew what was coming, but we knew it was a long road. Since I've never found my "true calling" I have no problem playing second fiddle as far as which career is more important because in the long run his successful career is going to give us a much more comfortable life and we WILL find a family friendly permanent job because we love our family friendly residency. I know some people say that isn't possible but I disagree and we're all allowed our own opinions.

Interesting question though...

I am not necessarily talking about pursuing high-income jobs - - though it sounds like money is obviously a factor in many people's family decisions.

I mean, whatever YOUR DREAM is. If your dream job is a lesser paying job (and with medical specialties it is often going to be) or if your dream is to raise children or to pursue something that is non-paying work, would your spouse make major, big-time sacrifices to make that work?

I don't mean this to sound judgmental - - I am just interested in how reciprocity affects marriage because I know that this has been an area of debate in our family.

[Gwendolyn]

I agree with Cheri.

I don't know any family who would decide to go the route of the low/no paying job over the high paying job. DH and I both have careers that are intense and require you to be able to move to where the job is (there are more theatre PhDs than there are jobs).

The quick and dirty is I will never make more than 60K a year. So, I make the most of it with my career, and he helps me do that to the best of his ability, but, as we all know, medicine comes first.

Whay I am trying to say is as long as DH is committed to supporting what I can do along the way, our marriage is what we want it to be.

[PrincessFiona]

Honestly? No...and we have talked about it ad nauseum. He recognizes the sacrifices that I have made and is thankful for them, but he honestly does not feel that he could uproot and move around for me.

It doesn't really bother me most of the time...because I think neither of us realized how exhausting the whole residency, residency, fellowship crap would be for us over the years. Now that it is behind us, he is craving stability and a nice family life...which I understand. I want it too...I just wish we could have that closer to a large university center for me.



kris

[spotty_dog]

He said he would, and I believed him. When we started on this medical school path, I was seriously considering veterinary school. There was no conceivable way I could plan to find a school where he got in to med school, so the choices were long distance or one of us postponing that education. We are not a good couple for a long distance relationship, so that was basically out. Our decision to move us both to the location of his med school was based on the fact that A) he had an acceptance in hand and B) he was positive about his choice where I was still waffling. It had nothing to do with me being the subservient one.

By supporting him now, I'm helping to assure that in a few years we'll have the income to permit me to have the flexibility to pursue a less-lucrative but fulfilling career, including full-time motherhood and/or any part-time profession (which will involve additional education) that I finally settle on. In addition, he's chosen a specialty that will allow him to work very few hours and support our family in the location of our dreams.

I'm not currently concerned about being "used" or abused in an unrespected role if that's what you're getting at.

"I'm not currently concerned about being "used" or abused in an unrespected role if that's what you're getting at."

Alison in Ohio, I did not mean to offend - - I hope I was clear that in our family we had been debating some of these issues and the balance of career/family/etc. I have been thinking about this because my view has traditonally been that love to me required mutual support of one another's dreams (and, in my marriage, the medical career has not always or even a majority of the time come first - - though damn it has still caused some major damage!).

Yet, I do try from time to time to update my views and this website has made me rethink and wonder: 1) maybe my version of love isn't everyone's - - that is, there is obviously a cultural factor and maybe huge amounts of mutual support and reciprocity isn't a prerequisite for everyone - - I mean, I am not doubting that you have loving relationships, how the heck would I have any knowledge of that, I am taking your word for it!; and 2) while DH and I are very happy, wouldn't change a thing about our decisions, and will actually end up quite well off, either of us could have made absolutely absurd money if we had just focused on one career - - so I can see the economic inefficiences to our decision to focus on mutual job satisfaction, not income.

I didn't mean for this question to make people feel defensive.

[Auspicious]

On the original question, my husband would and has compromised for my happiness. Believe me, it was not his dream to move to Chicago, it was mine. In my case it would be grossly unfair of me not to acknowledge what he's done for me here.

He loved both the program and the location at UVM and Dartmouth, and if he didn't know me, those programs would have been 1 and 2 easily on his rank list. They scored low on proximity to family, job opportunities for me, and cost of living, though, and they ended up 3 and 5 on the rank list. I was very concerned about the possibility of having to move to Vermont, but I also didn't feel justified in pushing it further down than 3 on the list. Marriage is hard, no doubt.

Will we regret ranking his current program above the several "big name" programs we put further down the list? Maybe. We won't know until it's time to search for an attending job several years from now. For now we're just trying to make the best decisions we can with the information we have. We feel we got a program where he'll get excellent training and a location that will be good for our family when we have one.

On specialty choice we just lucked out that the one that makes his heart go all aflutter also happens be family-friendly.

It's really complicated, trying to say what we're doing for "him" and what we're doing for "me" because really most of it benefits both of us in the long run. We do see marriage as a 50/50, though, (even if we're both sometimes squashed under the thumb of medicine) and he does believe in "happy wife, happy life." So far there's been room for both of us to be happy. So far we've both gotten way more out of the relationship than we've sacrificed to it.

(I don't mean any of the above as any kind of commentary on anyone else's marriage or choices. Like I said, marriage is hard, and I understand that every couple has to work it out for themselves and more power to 'em.)

[spotty_dog]

Not defensive per se. But hopefully you see that you've been pretty transparent with your condescension for those of us who did not truck headlong on our own paths regardless of our partners' medical training requirements. Just as you find it foreign to have a loving partnership where only one individual is "pursuing a dream" at a time, I find it strange to define love, commitment, marital happiness, and life fulfillment by virtue of what paying job one engages in. For my husband and for myself, a job is something that pays the bills. Hopefully it's interesting, keeps the mind engaged, gives back to society. But LIFE is what happens OUTSIDE of working hours. That's when we share time together, give in big and small ways of our time and energy to each other, make strides toward the big picture goals that we BOTH share. Little or no compromise is necessary there. There's no sacrifice so that one or the other gets what they want.

In that sense, every day my husband is doing what is necessary to make MY dream come true.

Alison,

I have already apologized once if anything I said offended you. I think I made abundantly clear in my follow up post that I was not necessarily referring to a job - - I said a DREAM, and specifically mentioned parenthood, hobby, and job.

I am not sure why you feel like I am condescending to you. I think I mentioned, repeatedly at this point, that both defining our goals with respect to mutual support and implementing them, have been an issue in our family and I was curious as to how others handle it. I hear your point that things are not so much mine/his but ours and I think its a good one.

As the party who has now apologized for any offense and offered multiple explanations about where I was heading with a straightforward question (a question with no requirement that you respond to it if it offended you!), I must say its a bit tough to be called "transparent" and "condescending" and accused of rushing headlong into my career in a judgemental way.

I hope that this forum can support a diversity of viewpoints, questions, and issues. I understand my experience might not be typical of all medical spouses, but hopefully you can respect it, as I respect yours.

[ides]

Well, for us I'd say Yes. My goal or 'dream' is to stop working and follow my creative business persuits. He encourages me and is happy to subsist until he's done with training on less money to make it happen for me. He is aware of the sacrifices I've made for his career, but we both feel that his career is 'ours'. It wasn't until after we had been together a year that he decided with my suggestion to go into medicine, so it's very much a team effort all the way. When were in the applicaiton process for Residency my happiness of location was a huge factor. He says that if I'm miserable, he will be too, even if he's working all the time. It's true that I still take the brunt of the household responsibilites, but that's just reality. I'd rather have him be happy in a career and able to support us then have him wash dishes regularly and me be miserable in a office job I know he would be happy hiring a maid when we have money, but I still feel a bit weird about someone else in my space. When it comes down to it, we both want to be happy together and what works for us as a team is the best choice. As well, I don't think this question can be even considered without money coming into it. For us, we are doing this alone, no parental support, nothing and survival matters!

[Sheherezade]

I think I can safely answer with....

I don't know.

I left a major "dream" career because of the kids, not DH. Without the kids, I'd still be on that path. After kids, I believe that if I had stayed in my career (academia) with its own required moves in search of "the job", the added stress of DH vs. me and childcare would have sunk us. My own parents struggled with competing careers (academia vs. medicine) - and they lost. I think that pressure was a major contributor to their troubles. It is easier today to have two careers and equal sharing of childcare and household responsibilities, but it is still a huge challenge. I'm reasonably happy with my life. I wish I could have that "dream" that came with my career, but I believe that would risk my own happy family. If forced to choose between happy marriage/happy kids and dream job.....it's easy. I've got the happy family. I'd pick that everytime.

But, would he do the same for me? He'd take on his share by putting the children in care and hiring a maid. He'd change jobs to a new city - as long as he could stay in his chosen field. He'd take a pay hit and would take a job of lesser stature. He might resent it - heck, I resent it sometimes! For me, it comes down to the kids more than the marriage issue. I would go after the dream job in a minute if I knew he'd stay home with the kids full time. But, if in the end, he resents me and the kids are also in daycare? Suddenly it isn't worth it. It's a complicated choice for everyone.

[spotty_dog]

Apology abundantly accepted! I am sorry that tone is not coming across today. My point is simply that our personal biases are coloring this discussion and it's hard to do anything about that. Your few posts on this board have given me an overall feel that you are continually surprised by an apparent abundance of spouses who are putting all their eggs in the medical basket so to speak. You've expressed alarm that non-medical spouses are coordinating residency moves, and offered your very considerate opinion that perhaps staying home and losing marketability is not a viable financial move. I'm reading a TON of compassion and an attempt to understand! I think you sound like a fabulous person! And I'm really grateful that you're here, participating, and ASKING, rather than just writing us off as a group of "Stepford spouses".

I just think that you are inadvertently superimposing your values on others. That's what I mean by condescension -- your very question, by its assumptions (that marriage is lessened by a lack of "mutual support"), implies for me that you're looking down on my situation where my supposed "potential" is being "wasted" and where I am choosing to continue delaying a job with real earning potential in favor of staying home with my future child.

But at the same time I'm trying to expose my own bias -- on the surface, "We're both in less-lucrative positions than we might have had but we're both fulfilled" doesn't sound like an end that justifies the means. In my case, seeking such fulfillment would have meant driving my family into debt and delaying the addition of children. It would mean following a passionate ambition that I've never felt in order to work long hours and miss out on my husband's time. It's just...a foreign concept to me. *shrug*

Ennyhoo. It's a great conversation and a fascinating discussion, it's great to see how everybody answers this question!

Thanks for the note Alison. Guilty as charged - - my own values and views definitely bias me. But, part of the reason I have been asking these questions is that I know its a tendency of mine to be a black and white thinker and somewhat rigid. Plus, in real life not the internet, I surround myself with people who are pretty much just like me in terms of background, etc. So, this forum has been kind of soundingboard for me to think further about things, especially as dh and I get ready to have a family (which I suspect makes balance and reciprocity alot messier and can change your thinking).

For the record, I don't think anyone is wasting their potential staying home with kids - - really, I don't have a dog in that fight. Its been my experience that there are alot of great jobs and alot of sucky jobs out there and if a parent finds it more rewarding to stay home then I don't look down on that - - the point I have made in past posts is that its economically risky because our government/legal system don't really recognize or reward that role. But, that doesn't mean you should never take a risk. Personally, I do not have the patience, selflessness, and equilibrium to stay at home. The one time I stayed at home (without kids) due to an employment gap, I drove myself and my dh so crazy - - I mean, utterly insane - - that I believe this has lead to his extreme willingness to accomodate my job and education!!

On the money front, I do think that, assuming you prefer to work rather than full time SAH, its a tough compromise. I have had both high and low paying jobs and in my experience - - much like medical residency - - the low paying jobs were necessary to get the high paying jobs. I know this isn't true for all fields as some jobs top out at relatively modest salaries. This is where I think its tough to be a medical spouse because the tendency is to compare your current pay to your spouse's ultimate pay after ten years of medical training. Well, where would the medical spouse be with ten years of investment in career (again, assuming that career was something you wanted)?

All this said, and I would have stated this upfront, but I didn't want to bias the posts: DH has made alot of compromises, but I am not at all sure how things would have worked out had he been the medical spouse - - mostly in terms of the loneliness it brings to a marriage. I am not sure he would go through training again for himself either which is saying something since he loves medicine.

OK, I have hijacked my own post, I promise I will shut up now!