Yipes.......

I guess we brought the discussion to a standstill. In retrospect, it does all look pretty negative. I will say this....if I had it to do all over again with my husband I would.....and I wouldn't change having had children when we did or him choosing a fellowship.....I think that the only thing that I would change were my expectations and some of my responses. I think that if I had been different that things would have been easier for us both. I think that Thomas would agree...his expectations for residency and fellowship were also unrealistic and if he had gone in knowing how exhausted he would be...prepared to deal with it...well, he might be better off now too.



But we have sort of...crossed that proverbial hump and are on the downslide now...just 6 months to go...and so I think right now we are starting to go through the stages of moving on...



I apologize for kind of "exploding" there....we all cope differently I guess.



Kris

As I see it, your honest thoughts require no apology. You are honest and direct, and I appreciate your thoughts. I appreciate everyone's thoughts, as marriages are all so unique.



Janet

I think that there are definitely a lot of posts here with a negative slant. However, I feel that they are a result of people venting and asking for help. I also think that any negative experience can be learned from. Positive experiences are great because we can learn HOW to do something right. Negative experiences are also great because they teach us and others HOW NOT to do something.

I think the posts are pretty evenly split and reflect what is going on in people's lives....I think that less people respond to the positive ones...ie happy thanksgiving, etc...maybe people are needing to vent? I know that I am more likely to write if I am struggling with something than if I am happy about something......



my .02



Kris

Yes, Kris, I agree with you there. I do think that people are more likely to write when they are struggling because they are trying to find their way and work through their issues. The act of writing itself is "inventive", in that you begin to realize what you are thinking when you are typing. The act of writing itself is a process of discovery. How often have we all sat down to write something and ended up with something we didn't know we could articulate? It happens, and it's healty! Claudia, here's my composition theory coming out. Writing is inventive--a process of discovery. I truely believe that!



In that sense, even venting is positive! I know you might think I'm twisting it, but really, if venting helps to illuminate something, that's positive.

i am really intrigued by this discussion we are having - it has really really provoked a lot of thinking over the last few days. i attended my last family seminar today (last day of classes!! yeah!! only beginning of exams though!!) and it was so-o "compelling" (i love that word, janet! it describes this so well!! you rhetoricians always have the best words!!) we all discussed what we had received from the course over the semester and i talked about marriage.



i said how MUCH i had learned about marriage and how just silly i was before - i was getting into the media's hype about marriage expecting that my fiance would come home from the hospital and we would go dance in the park in the rain, blah blah blah. . .i'm being dramatic, i know! but i am really amazed by how much more realistic my expectations are for our marriage now - like honestly, my expectations are basically that he will love me and provide companionship and stay faithful for life - but on a day to day basis, my expectations are really, really low. i expect him to spend some of the time that he IS home with me and that is about it. i guess i can't get disappointed with such low expectations, only happily surprised. and i'm now charging into my job search with fierce energy because i know that me having a job that i really love is going to be REALLY important to our marriage. if i hate my job, i could really see me taking it out on him when he is home and expecting him to make me happy and replace my unhappiness from work. uhhhh, i'm babbling now!

sorry!!! i always do that!!



another interesting thing that i thought of today - this woman in class talked about how she has been having a rough time in the course all semester b/c everyone else seemed to have "normal" families while her dad ran out on her mom, she had to look in trash cans for food, her brother and her went to school with shoes that had no soles - just an awful situation to be in. and i was sitting there thinking wow - and who am i?! and so i said well, i will never forget your story. ever. and i have always and am still dealing with the issue of do i feel guilty for having such a "normal" family? or embarrassed? or fortunate? b/c when i was growing up i would always HATE telling my new friends what my father did b/c then they would say ohhhh, and just think of these wild things that go along with being a doctor's kid, most of which are so untrue. and then lookie here! i'm getting into the same type of family now! so my kids are going to someday walk around and possibly be embarrassed to say that their dad is a surgeon which in my experience makes the stereotypes RAGE on! just thoughts....no answers...



so i'm wondering now. . .what do you do to make sure that you have the best marriage possible as a medical spouse or any spouse for that matter? keep your expectations in check? what else?



ok, SORRY for rambling.....

hope everyone is doing well!!!

claudia

Kris has coined this phrase: "that's my .02". It's great. So here is my two-copper-coin opinion on enriching your marriage through training. And I think some people can actual enrich in those years, unlike my husband and I, who just survived with injuries to deal with now. What would I have done differently with my husband (not very well suited for medicine, unfortunately), who exhibited more than the usual amount of depression, anxiety, stress, and exhaustion?



Number one, I would not have thought that he was the only one going through this, and secretly judged him for "not snapping out of it". I think I would have shown him more compassion and less impatience. I think I would have validated his feelings more. That would have been more supportive of me and might have helped him find some more much-needed strength within himself.



Number two, I would have seeked out counselling during rougher times. Instead, we weathered storms that were too rough without navigational instruments. A lighthouse would have saved unnecesary hardship.



Well, I think that is what I would do differently. What would I do the same? I would have still thrown myself into my career. Just after finishing my MA in Rhetoric and Professional Writing I got a series of increasingly interesting jobs. Within that period, I learned so much and gained a great deal of experience that I will always draw upon. And then, I would certainly have gotten pregnant like I did in April of 1998--because then I would have not missed out on my darling twin daughters, Natalie and Grace. They are going to be two years old this Saturday! They are having a little party and we've invited some toddler friends and their parents. I would trade that for the best jobs in the world! We love them more than life itself. So, at least Andrew and I did a few things right.



Well, my O2. Kris, did you know that the way I spelled it (without the period), it reads like the abbreviation for oxygen? I thought my Floridian scientist friend would like that one!

well since we are all talking about what we would do differently, I think I can add the here and now perspective as I am in the thick of the beginning. What I would have done differently from day one was believe more in the strength of our relationship and my own strength as well. I spent many a day and night thinking that i should probably leave Daniel as he had enough stress and he would probably be better off not worrying about me.



that was incredibly short sighted of me,as I was attempting to make a decision that was not mine to make.



i would have paid more attention to the posts on the board that explained how their husbands/spouses were emotionally distant. i would have spent more time with Daniel just laying on the couch and enjoying his presence instead of questioning where all of our discussions of the past had gone. i would have tried to understand that what he was going through would change him however the internal fiber of the man remained the same. i would try to understand that his unique background and experience made him the man that i love and i would constantly remind me and him that i loved him DESPITE the face that he is a doctor.



i would get up more at 3 in the morning and just wathc him and think how wonderful it was that he could enjoy something we all take for granted (sleep) and that he chose to sleep in our bed instead of being alone. i would have looked at my relationship as an opportunity of a lifetime to spend the rest of my life with a very faithful and commited man, despite the fact that he had some shortcomings as a result of the residency.



my prior experiences with men had been that they are for the most part total jerks. i would have reminded myself everyday that daniel is an

. . .

. . ."up and down the river" kind of guy



instead of wondering what happened to the man i fell in love with i would draw more on the events before the residency started, which i have come to understand he created because he knew this would happen to him. instead of missing the times we used to have i would be more thankful for the energy he put forward to try to lay a foundation for us before the residency started.



i would have cut out the beer on day one of the residency--DAY 1!!!



i would worry less about money and bills and rely on the fact that we are fortunate then most. we have two incomes and no dependants. good lord my heros kris and janet have done much more with less and they are both surviving remarkably well.



and so to use the kris phrase--that is my .02. i would mention that i am in the thick of the first year so i try daily to remind myself of the things that i wish i had done differently so that i don't repeat the same mistakes over and over again.



so you have my frame of mind at the moment--granted come next week--halfway through his week long stay at the treatment center (part of his training)--i may be singing a different tune. who knows. i try daily to remember something kris taught me the first time i talked with her on line--things may not get better and they may not get worse but they most certainly will get different

I am really enjoying this phase of the discussion, especially the varying perspectives from those engaged to those who have been married many years and those who have children and those that don't. I think that everyone has valuable input.



Since my engagement two years ago and my recent marriage (6 months), I have really learned a lot about myself and just how unrealistic my expectations of marriage and relationships have been. I think consiously I need that I wanted the fairytale relationship with my husband filled with romance, and emotional closeness and "dancing in the park in the rain" (like claudia says). On top of wanting that, I thought it would be easy to do.



Since June, I have found that being married is the hardest thing I have ever done. I talk to friends and family in marriages and they agree. I found this so ironic because they make it look so easy. It comes down to expectations.



I asked my husband to see someone in his employee assistance program because of his angry attitude and behavior was part of the problems hurting our relationship. He came home with pamphlets on stress management and this website for me. The counselor told him that he was like many other physicians who came there and was obviously very stressed out. I understood the burned out part, but it surprised me that his behavior was similar to other people in his profession and that it sounded like I was the one who needed better coping skills.



I came to this website and started reading the message boards filled with similar situations that we had encountered. I eventually went to see the counselor to get help with dealing with his anger, stress and frustration. Among some validation for my feelings and verification that my husband was not alone in his thoughts about medical training, she congratulated me on knowing that my expectations of marriage were unrealistic and that was the place for me to start.



I know my expectations came from refusing to have the same kind of marriage that my parents had which ended up in divorce after 22 years. By changing my expectations, trying to be more understanding of what my husband has gone through and both of us trying harder to communicate we have become much happier.

opps this is a continuation of my last post. My cat decided to step on the keyboard!



As a result of our minor behavioral and attitude changes, and reading this board daily, I now feel equipped to be successful in my marriage. I still question myself wondering if I am cut out to be married to someone in the who works a demanding job. But I have learned to take one day at a time and I try to make our time together special. It really works.



Thanks for all the valuable lessons. I have really benefitted from them!

Jennifer, I think that you have accomplished what I needed to 6 years ago when my husband started residency! I thought he was weak for not handling things better, flawed for not dealing with the stress properly, and on and on. My expectations were way out there. You have done in a few short months what took me years to learn on my own. I think that is so wonderful for you! It is a great beginning for your marriage!