Cracking Down on Residency Programs...

Well, I think that it is hard to generalize financial situations, and even how "poor" someone is because everyone's financial situation is different. I didn't mean to step on any toes and imply that a mom working was a bad thing....what I meant was how much more stressful it is for children and MOM when dad is working 100 hours a week and mom is having to juggle career, childcare, children's emotional needs, homework, dad's exhaustion and frustrations with residency, home repairs, landlord problems, packing for another move, etc on her own while having to perform at a job. I've done both by the way, and I'd say that the time that I was working I was a scraggled mess because the stress was so great...I literally packed for this last move by opening up boxes and just throwing stuff in...I just didn't have the time or emotional energy...we actually sent our dirty laundry in the playpen and I didn't give a poop anymore because I was so exhausted.

I think everyone's financial situation is unique. Ours is diff. because we had absolutely no help from our families (many people don't)...we never had help with a plane ticket for interviews or to go and visit a relative, for preschool, etc....occasionally my mom would send us some clothes for the kids, which was an awesome help, but really that was it. We made two international moves and two moves in the US. We paid out of pocket for all moving expenses during residency as well as all interviews...and don't forget the state licensing fees, thousand dollar board exam fees, etc etc etc..

We are out of residency now, but our debt load is literally three times our take-home salary....we pay 40% tax! (MN has a state tax). Consider the payments on nearly $200K in school loans and moving expenses....they are twice our mortgage!!!!! We aren't living it large...we have one pretty used car that we share and most of our rooms in our house are empty (and if we hadn't bought the house we would have owed the IRS an extra $4000 this year )...we have no money for luxuries at all, like...a babysitter on Friday night! It is a lot of sacrifice after medical school and 7.5 years of residency..and it is true that some people never earn more...but they likely didn't go through the rigors of medical training and sacrifice time with their families, etc etc...Doesn't hard work deserve a pay off? Is there someone here that doesn't hope to live in a nice home and drive a minivan someday? OK...it doesn't have to be a minivan...but you know what I mean. My husband didn't go into medicine for the money..and trust me, it isn't there, but it would be nice not to have to fight about buying diapers or gas for the car.

But...it was our choice to have children during residency....so we're responsible.

I'm sure suffering is a relative term, and $32K does sound like a lot of money IF you don't have $200,000 in loans to pay off. Heck, 100K sounds like a lot of money until you realize how much you're paying in taxes and loan payments...We have friends who are professionals who aren't physicians who've been able to put away money in their 401K plans, set some money aside for their children's education and their own retirement....and we aren't in that position yet. We make our loan payment, our house payment, our car payment, electricity, phone and we are about broke. Buying groceries is a very interesting experience ...that will change as we continue to pay down our debt and we do have the hope of a better salary...but salaries have sunk over the last several years. We currently have no retirement, minimal life insurance for Thomas only, and no savings for our children's education or any other emergency costs...

Just another perspective...please, please, please don't hate me for my views!!! I totally respect the different perspectives!

OH...here is an interesting salary site...

www.studentdoc.com/july_surv.html



Kris
Time is a Dressmaker, Specializing in Alterations!Edited by: kmmath  at: 2/6/02 3:06:56 pm

Well, I think that it is hard to generalize financial situations, and even how "poor" someone is because everyone's financial situation is different. I didn't mean to step on any toes and imply that a mom working was a bad thing....what I meant was how much more stressful it is for children and MOM when dad is working 100 hours a week and mom is having to juggle career, childcare, children's emotional needs, homework, dad's exhaustion and frustrations with residency, home repairs, landlord problems, packing for another move, etc on her own while having to perform at a job. I've done both by the way, and I'd say that the time that I was working I was a scraggled mess because the stress was so great...I literally packed for this last move by opening up boxes and just throwing stuff in...I just didn't have the time or emotional energy...we actually sent our dirty laundry in the playpen and I didn't give a poop anymore because I was so exhausted.

I think everyone's financial situation is unique. Ours is diff. because we had absolutely no help from our families (many people don't)...we never had help with a plane ticket for interviews or to go and visit a relative, for preschool, etc....occasionally my mom would send us some clothes for the kids, which was an awesome help, but really that was it. We made two international moves and two moves in the US. We paid out of pocket for all moving expenses during residency as well as all interviews...and don't forget the state licensing fees, thousand dollar board exam fees, etc etc etc..

We are out of residency now, but our debt load is literally three times our take-home salary....we pay 40% tax! (MN has a state tax). Consider the payments on nearly $200K in school loans and moving expenses....they are twice our mortgage!!!!! We aren't living it large...we have one pretty used car that we share and most of our rooms in our house are empty (and if we hadn't bought the house we would have owed the IRS an extra $4000 this year )...we have no money for luxuries at all, like...a babysitter on Friday night! It is a lot of sacrifice after medical school and 7.5 years of residency..and it is true that some people never earn more...but they likely didn't go through the rigors of medical training and sacrifice time with their families, etc etc...Doesn't hard work deserve a pay off? Is there someone here that doesn't hope to live in a nice home and drive a minivan someday? OK...it doesn't have to be a minivan...but you know what I mean. My husband didn't go into medicine for the money..and trust me, it isn't there, but it would be nice not to have to fight about buying diapers or gas for the car.

But...it was our choice to have children during residency....so we're responsible.

I'm sure suffering is a relative term, and $32K does sound like a lot of money IF you don't have $200,000 in loans to pay off. Heck, 100K sounds like a lot of money until you realize how much you're paying in taxes and loan payments...We have friends who are professionals who aren't physicians who've been able to put away money in their 401K plans, set some money aside for their children's education and their own retirement....and we aren't in that position yet. We make our loan payment, our house payment, our car payment, electricity, phone and we are about broke. Buying groceries is a very interesting experience ...that will change as we continue to pay down our debt and we do have the hope of a better salary...but salaries have sunk over the last several years. We currently have no retirement, minimal life insurance for Thomas only, and no savings for our children's education or any other emergency costs...

Just another perspective...please, please, please don't hate me for my views!!! I totally respect the different perspectives!

OH...here is an interesting salary site...

www.studentdoc.com/july_surv.html



Kris
Time is a Dressmaker, Specializing in Alterations!Edited by: kmmath  at: 2/6/02 3:06:56 pm

Well, I think that it is hard to generalize financial situations, and even how "poor" someone is because everyone's financial situation is different. I didn't mean to step on any toes and imply that a mom working was a bad thing....what I meant was how much more stressful it is for children and MOM when dad is working 100 hours a week and mom is having to juggle career, childcare, children's emotional needs, homework, dad's exhaustion and frustrations with residency, home repairs, landlord problems, packing for another move, etc on her own while having to perform at a job. I've done both by the way, and I'd say that the time that I was working I was a scraggled mess because the stress was so great...I literally packed for this last move by opening up boxes and just throwing stuff in...I just didn't have the time or emotional energy...we actually sent our dirty laundry in the playpen and I didn't give a poop anymore because I was so exhausted.

I think everyone's financial situation is unique. Ours is diff. because we had absolutely no help from our families (many people don't)...we never had help with a plane ticket for interviews or to go and visit a relative, for preschool, etc....occasionally my mom would send us some clothes for the kids, which was an awesome help, but really that was it. We made two international moves and two moves in the US. We paid out of pocket for all moving expenses during residency as well as all interviews...and don't forget the state licensing fees, thousand dollar board exam fees, etc etc etc..

We are out of residency now, but our debt load is literally three times our take-home salary....we pay 40% tax! (MN has a state tax). Consider the payments on nearly $200K in school loans and moving expenses....they are twice our mortgage!!!!! We aren't living it large...we have one pretty used car that we share and most of our rooms in our house are empty (and if we hadn't bought the house we would have owed the IRS an extra $4000 this year )...we have no money for luxuries at all, like...a babysitter on Friday night! It is a lot of sacrifice after medical school and 7.5 years of residency..and it is true that some people never earn more...but they likely didn't go through the rigors of medical training and sacrifice time with their families, etc etc...Doesn't hard work deserve a pay off? Is there someone here that doesn't hope to live in a nice home and drive a minivan someday? OK...it doesn't have to be a minivan...but you know what I mean. My husband didn't go into medicine for the money..and trust me, it isn't there, but it would be nice not to have to fight about buying diapers or gas for the car.

But...it was our choice to have children during residency....so we're responsible.

I'm sure suffering is a relative term, and $32K does sound like a lot of money IF you don't have $200,000 in loans to pay off. Heck, 100K sounds like a lot of money until you realize how much you're paying in taxes and loan payments...We have friends who are professionals who aren't physicians who've been able to put away money in their 401K plans, set some money aside for their children's education and their own retirement....and we aren't in that position yet. We make our loan payment, our house payment, our car payment, electricity, phone and we are about broke. Buying groceries is a very interesting experience ...that will change as we continue to pay down our debt and we do have the hope of a better salary...but salaries have sunk over the last several years. We currently have no retirement, minimal life insurance for Thomas only, and no savings for our children's education or any other emergency costs...

Just another perspective...please, please, please don't hate me for my views!!! I totally respect the different perspectives!

OH...here is an interesting salary site...

www.studentdoc.com/july_surv.html



Kris
Time is a Dressmaker, Specializing in Alterations!Edited by: kmmath  at: 2/6/02 3:06:56 pm

[Phoebe]

Moonlighting is a double-edged sword. During residency, I didn't want my then fiance to moonlight because he was never home. But his extra work allowed us to have a down payment for a house during his fellowship. In the first year of fellowship, my husband was required to moonlight 1 to 2 times a month to cover the maternity ward at night. It became a burden because they had no choice. Now it is a sign up deal.

I still don't like the idea of moonlighting all the time because it keeps our family apart. However, it has become a necessity since I am not working after the birth of our baby. We try to find a balance. I can see both sides of moonlighting. I don't think it is fair to punish residents by taking moonlighting opportunities away, especially because they have earned the right to work and can help cover some of the high costs of living.

It is much more lucrative for my husband to moonlight because if I were to get a second job, I would make 1/3 the amount. I guess the key in each specialty is to try and find a happy medium. My husband has opportunities to cover hospitals from home and get paid the same as staying overnight at the hospital so he is opting for that kind of work over working at an urgent care like he did during residency.

Jennifer

[Phoebe]

Moonlighting is a double-edged sword. During residency, I didn't want my then fiance to moonlight because he was never home. But his extra work allowed us to have a down payment for a house during his fellowship. In the first year of fellowship, my husband was required to moonlight 1 to 2 times a month to cover the maternity ward at night. It became a burden because they had no choice. Now it is a sign up deal.

I still don't like the idea of moonlighting all the time because it keeps our family apart. However, it has become a necessity since I am not working after the birth of our baby. We try to find a balance. I can see both sides of moonlighting. I don't think it is fair to punish residents by taking moonlighting opportunities away, especially because they have earned the right to work and can help cover some of the high costs of living.

It is much more lucrative for my husband to moonlight because if I were to get a second job, I would make 1/3 the amount. I guess the key in each specialty is to try and find a happy medium. My husband has opportunities to cover hospitals from home and get paid the same as staying overnight at the hospital so he is opting for that kind of work over working at an urgent care like he did during residency.

Jennifer

[Phoebe]

Moonlighting is a double-edged sword. During residency, I didn't want my then fiance to moonlight because he was never home. But his extra work allowed us to have a down payment for a house during his fellowship. In the first year of fellowship, my husband was required to moonlight 1 to 2 times a month to cover the maternity ward at night. It became a burden because they had no choice. Now it is a sign up deal.

I still don't like the idea of moonlighting all the time because it keeps our family apart. However, it has become a necessity since I am not working after the birth of our baby. We try to find a balance. I can see both sides of moonlighting. I don't think it is fair to punish residents by taking moonlighting opportunities away, especially because they have earned the right to work and can help cover some of the high costs of living.

It is much more lucrative for my husband to moonlight because if I were to get a second job, I would make 1/3 the amount. I guess the key in each specialty is to try and find a happy medium. My husband has opportunities to cover hospitals from home and get paid the same as staying overnight at the hospital so he is opting for that kind of work over working at an urgent care like he did during residency.

Jennifer

What a shame that the program's response has been to punish the residents and their families instead of to fix their program. I have a little different perspective on moonlighting because my husband's program didn't allow it and I don't see how it would have been possible even if they had -- he rarely had a 24 hour period off. However, since we were military, his salary was more than if he had been in a civilian residency program.


Sally

What a shame that the program's response has been to punish the residents and their families instead of to fix their program. I have a little different perspective on moonlighting because my husband's program didn't allow it and I don't see how it would have been possible even if they had -- he rarely had a 24 hour period off. However, since we were military, his salary was more than if he had been in a civilian residency program.


Sally

What a shame that the program's response has been to punish the residents and their families instead of to fix their program. I have a little different perspective on moonlighting because my husband's program didn't allow it and I don't see how it would have been possible even if they had -- he rarely had a 24 hour period off. However, since we were military, his salary was more than if he had been in a civilian residency program.


Sally

We couldn't have survived without the moonlighting, but I will say that it came at a very high emotional cost to all of us because my dh only had two weekends off a month and he worked every single one of them to keep us afloat financially...ie he worked 7 days a week for most of fellowship

But I agree that residents and their families are being punished...the programs need to look at how they can change...but I also think it's time to consider the cost of a medical education vs. residency pay, etc, etc.....

This is a tough blow for a lot of people....though I'm sure it will give families more together time? Or send mom back to work which is a real stress if you consider that families are already under stress because of the absence of one parent, etc...

Kris
Time is a Dressmaker, Specializing in Alterations!

We couldn't have survived without the moonlighting, but I will say that it came at a very high emotional cost to all of us because my dh only had two weekends off a month and he worked every single one of them to keep us afloat financially...ie he worked 7 days a week for most of fellowship

But I agree that residents and their families are being punished...the programs need to look at how they can change...but I also think it's time to consider the cost of a medical education vs. residency pay, etc, etc.....

This is a tough blow for a lot of people....though I'm sure it will give families more together time? Or send mom back to work which is a real stress if you consider that families are already under stress because of the absence of one parent, etc...

Kris
Time is a Dressmaker, Specializing in Alterations!

We couldn't have survived without the moonlighting, but I will say that it came at a very high emotional cost to all of us because my dh only had two weekends off a month and he worked every single one of them to keep us afloat financially...ie he worked 7 days a week for most of fellowship

But I agree that residents and their families are being punished...the programs need to look at how they can change...but I also think it's time to consider the cost of a medical education vs. residency pay, etc, etc.....

This is a tough blow for a lot of people....though I'm sure it will give families more together time? Or send mom back to work which is a real stress if you consider that families are already under stress because of the absence of one parent, etc...

Kris
Time is a Dressmaker, Specializing in Alterations!

[houseelf]

I'm torn on this issue too. Our program doesn't allow moonlighting here, which is why I work outside the home. We absolutely couldn't make it on his salary alone. When I stayed at home, we went further into debt each month. We would get into an argument if I went to kmart to buy essentials because we had no money. I miss the opportunity to be a SAHM, but I guess that I am grateful for what I do have.

I believe that moonlighting may be an option for us in the upper years if moonlighting occurs only on an infrequent basis and it doesn't interfere with clinical duties. Apparently, clinical duties in the upper years entail some amount of home call which would make this more feasible.

I agree with some of Kris's and Claudia's sentiments. I hate to bemoan the obvious, but working outside the home is a B**** when you have a small child in a city where you know no one and you are responsible for everything from paying the bills to car repairs to social obligations because your spouse works 100+ hours a week, or so I've been told. I'm dismayed by this profession for neglecting the needs of these doctors and their families. Can't they see what this does?

I really didn't mean to come off this militant today... I guess that I haven't had coffee yet. It always feels good to come and rant at the one place where someone understands....

Kelly

[houseelf]

I'm torn on this issue too. Our program doesn't allow moonlighting here, which is why I work outside the home. We absolutely couldn't make it on his salary alone. When I stayed at home, we went further into debt each month. We would get into an argument if I went to kmart to buy essentials because we had no money. I miss the opportunity to be a SAHM, but I guess that I am grateful for what I do have.

I believe that moonlighting may be an option for us in the upper years if moonlighting occurs only on an infrequent basis and it doesn't interfere with clinical duties. Apparently, clinical duties in the upper years entail some amount of home call which would make this more feasible.

I agree with some of Kris's and Claudia's sentiments. I hate to bemoan the obvious, but working outside the home is a B**** when you have a small child in a city where you know no one and you are responsible for everything from paying the bills to car repairs to social obligations because your spouse works 100+ hours a week, or so I've been told. I'm dismayed by this profession for neglecting the needs of these doctors and their families. Can't they see what this does?

I really didn't mean to come off this militant today... I guess that I haven't had coffee yet. It always feels good to come and rant at the one place where someone understands....

Kelly

[houseelf]

I'm torn on this issue too. Our program doesn't allow moonlighting here, which is why I work outside the home. We absolutely couldn't make it on his salary alone. When I stayed at home, we went further into debt each month. We would get into an argument if I went to kmart to buy essentials because we had no money. I miss the opportunity to be a SAHM, but I guess that I am grateful for what I do have.

I believe that moonlighting may be an option for us in the upper years if moonlighting occurs only on an infrequent basis and it doesn't interfere with clinical duties. Apparently, clinical duties in the upper years entail some amount of home call which would make this more feasible.

I agree with some of Kris's and Claudia's sentiments. I hate to bemoan the obvious, but working outside the home is a B**** when you have a small child in a city where you know no one and you are responsible for everything from paying the bills to car repairs to social obligations because your spouse works 100+ hours a week, or so I've been told. I'm dismayed by this profession for neglecting the needs of these doctors and their families. Can't they see what this does?

I really didn't mean to come off this militant today... I guess that I haven't had coffee yet. It always feels good to come and rant at the one place where someone understands....

Kelly