Vaccines

[diggitydot]

I truly believe Jenny McCarthy is a grade-A moron. Her shtick that her son's autism was cured by changing his diet is bunk. Then he wasn't autistic, Jen -- he had food sensitivities.

[SuzySunshine]

I can only imagine how frustrating it is for those families, I know if it was my child I'd want to know why. But what I don't understand is why autism is any different the cancer? No one knows what causes 99% of those. And there are still MILLIONS of things that are unknown about the brain. Millions!

I have a friend who's daughter has a seizure disorder, they don't know what caused it and they didn't KNOW what would cure it but they took out a significant portion of her brain in the hope that it would help. It did! Amazingly she has had VERY few deficits and her seizures are GONE.

I think this says it very well.

In short: being the parents/siblings of a person on the autism spectrum is frustrating, for there is no real answer as to why, and no "cure" either.
I think people need closure, and seek the vaccine explanation to give them that.
In my opinion, it should have NEVER gotten to this point -- to vaccinate is to keep the overall population hopefully insulated against epidemics.

And because its children, not adults it will probably never be treated like a cancer or many other diseases we don't have answers for.

[Pollyanna]

The varicella vax is not 100% effective. DD17 had the vax and the booster and still got a nasty case of chicken pox. We feel good that she has had it and all the other kiddos were exposed to her so we feel like we are good to go on that one. DD2 is fully vaxed but we split some up at the beginning because I didn't want to do 5 shots in one day (was not worried about autism) and because if there was a side effect it would be easier to track it down. We simply split them up by two weeks. My pediatrician was fine with this because he knew I wouldn't let her get behind on her shots. All the kiddos are fully vaxed but I do have empathy for people with autistic children. It is such a devastating condition that seems to hit around the time kiddos are getting a bunch of vaccinations. Many of these parents just want answers, they are experiencing a profound loss and they want something to blame. Unfortunately it has created a side hysteria that is now threatening to risk the health of the general population. Shows like the one Cheri posted is good for people to see. It is also helpful for docs to sit down with parents and talk them down from the ledge, that is probably the best line of defense in the long run. Fear is irrational so it is hard to have a rational argument with someone who is afraid. It's like trying to explain airplane safety to someone afraid of flying, of course the difference here is that the choices of others are now effecting everyone.

As a side note, my mom talks about living on the farm and listening to all the deaths from polio on the radio every day. Her oldest sister was stricken with it and had to be sent away to a hospital many hours away for over a year to get treatment. On top of having polio her sister was verbally abused by the nurses on a daily basis because she was Catholic and would pray her rosary daily. No really.

[scarlett09]

DH said he read that more peds are now turning patients away who are not vaccinating their children.

And lots of mom's on mothering.com are looking for non/delayed vax friendly peds. I don't blame the peds for turning those patients away, it's dangerous for newborns to be in those waiting rooms with sick kids!

DH has told me that if he was going into private practice, that he would have an extremely difficult time having patients whose parents refused to have them vaccinated. I'm not sure how many of these he has encountered in clinic, but fortunately he won't have to deal with this too much as a hospitalist.

DD2 is fully vaxed but we split some up at the beginning because I didn't want to do 5 shots in one day (was not worried about autism) and because if there was a side effect it would be easier to track it down. We simply split them up by two weeks. My pediatrician was fine with this because he knew I wouldn't let her get behind on her shots.

I think this is a good idea, but some peds are reluctant to do this. I was just talking with my hairdresser about this a couple of weeks ago. She tried to split up some of her 4-month old's shots and the NP administering the shots flipped out on her. Her reasoning for doing it was that her now 9-year old son had a severe reaction to this same set of shots, wound up in the ED and got a spinal. Obviously scarred from that experience, she just wanted to break them up by 2 weeks. She couldn't believe the reaction - they knew who she was and that she also has a 9-year old son seeing the same ped, that she would be back in two weeks, and wouldn't just disappear into the night. They reluctantly agreed to break up the shots.

Regarding autism, my best friend and her husband have an autistic child (from his first marriage). One day I posted something on FB about how the local news station was parading around a mom with an autistic kid as an "autism expert" and how I was pissed off that she was railing against vaccinations. Her husband commented on my status and it was so profound. He said that if John had gotten autism from his vaccinations that day in the doctor's office, how come all of the other children there that day getting their vaccinations didn't also get autism, and all of the other children who were vaccinated with the same "batch" of medications in that office didn't get autism?

[TulipsAndSunscreen]

I think this is a good idea, but some peds are reluctant to do this. I was just talking with my hairdresser about this a couple of weeks ago. She tried to split up some of her 4-month old's shots and the NP administering the shots flipped out on her. Her reasoning for doing it was that her now 9-year old son had a severe reaction to this same set of shots, wound up in the ED and got a spinal. Obviously scarred from that experience, she just wanted to break them up by 2 weeks. She couldn't believe the reaction - they knew who she was and that she also has a 9-year old son seeing the same ped, that she would be back in two weeks, and wouldn't just disappear into the night. They reluctantly agreed to break up the shots.

So the reason that a lot of peds won't do this is because they're afraid the parents won't bring the kids back and/or that the insurance won't pay for a second visit when everything should have been done in a first visit. Doctors, especially PCPs like Peds or IMs, are so busy already squeezing in appointments that it's hard to justify splitting things up, especially if you won't get compensated for a second visit. Obviously your friend should have been accommodated because of a known familial hypersensitivity but I can understand why, in general, peds don't want to do this. At least that's my understanding but perhaps someone with more peds experience can chime in.

[scarlett09]

So the reason that a lot of peds won't do this is because they're afraid the parents won't bring the kids back and/or that the insurance won't pay for a second visit when everything should have been done in a first visit. Doctors, especially PCPs like Peds or IMs, are so busy already squeezing in appointments that it's hard to justify splitting things up, especially if you won't get compensated for a second visit. Obviously your friend should have been accommodated because of a known familial hypersensitivity but I can understand why, in general, peds don't want to do this. At least that's my understanding but perhaps someone with more peds experience can chime in.

This is what DH told me when we talked about vaccinations in general. The main fear is that the parents won't bring the kids back. Not sure about the insurance part though. Wondering what others have heard.

[scrub-jay]

I just wrote a very long post addressing this issue, I don't think I can rewrite it. I'll give you the gist. I feel very strongly about this issue and it is one of the few issues that really fires me up. First of all, I think Tara hinted on this, but I think the fact that most parents today (myself included) have not seen entire neighborhoods of children stricken by (now) preventable childhood diseases is key. My mother and grandmother talk about the polio deaths and how amazing it was when the polio vaccine was introduced by Jonas Salk and his team. My mother says he was hailed as a hero. Today, Paul Offit, whose rotovirus vaccine has saved countless lives in third world countries, is one of the most hated men in America. This is ridiculous. There is not discernible reason that children need to be dying from measles or pertussis, none. As for Jenny McCarthy and the pediatrician she parades around with - they are unforgivable. Jenny McCarthy claims that she "cured" her son's autism by giving him probiotics. (I'm not making this up)

GMW - The math is out there, multiple studies were conducted following Andrew Wakefield's publication in the Lancet claiming a link between autism and the MMR vaccine and they couldn't even find a possible CORRELATION. Funny how he lost his medical license for the fraudulent methods and motivations (paid) involved in the development of his "study/theory"...

Furthermore, you cannot argue with the anti-vaccination crowd with logic. My logic: 'multiple large-scale studies were completed following Wakefield's publication and they found NO CORRELATION, let alone CAUSATION between autism and vaccines!' Their rebuttal: 'The medical community are all profiteering and they must be lying' Me: 'they were done in separate studies, in separate countries, some with socialized (not capitalist) medical systems' Theirs: 'They all lie, they're evil' Ultimately, I give up, you can't argue this with logic.

[GrayMatterWife]

But you don't need math. Vaccines don't cause autism so there's no reference.

I was trying to propose an analysis that allowed for the assumption of the connection, so to avoid having to wade into the validity of the connection. That is, even if there is a connection, so what? Does the risk "posed" by vaccines mean, therefore, that vaccines should be avoided altogether? Vaccines aren't gin-and-tonics. They have a health function--why should we throw out that health function because there is a risk of autism? This seems like math to me.

[SoonerTexan]

I'm going to disagree slightly...

I might have considered a delayed vaccination schedule if A. Daddy wouldn't be wandering the halls of a huge public hospital when baby is 6 months old and B. I could stay home and not have someone else watching her. As it stands, it seems prudent to get everything on time. By delayed I mean splitting up the shots or waiting a few months to a year--I know for a fact there are some peds in this area that advocate these practices, but that is a different debate. I didn't bother trying to do the research regarding delayed schedules because we are getting them on time no matter what.

However, I think it is a little unfair to completely demonize the parents. These are the parents that DO care, however misguided or illogical they might be. A friend of the family had one of her twins die of SIDS shortly after they got their shots...was it related? Probably not...but who wouldn't question it after something so tragic? Adverse reactions were always more of a concern to me than autism. The man who faked the research is just awful, though--cant really forgive him for that.

The main fear is that the parents won't bring the kids back.

This is interesting... While we do plan to follow a normal vaccination schedule, I don't plan to give Hep B at birth. I was fine with it until I started wondering why they push this particular shot so early. Then I looked up how Hep B is usually communicated as it seemed odd that a newborn would be at risk for what is generally known as an STD.
Causes, incidence, and risk factors

Hepatitis B infection can be spread through having contact with the blood, semen, vaginal fluids, and other body fluids of someone who already has a hepatitis B infection.
Infection can be spread through:

• Blood transfusions (not common in the United States)
• Direct contact with blood in health care settings
• Sexual contact with an infected person
• Tattoo or acupuncture with unclean needles or instruments
• Shared needles during drug use
• Shared personal items (such as toothbrushes, razors, and nail clippers) with an infected person

The hepatitis B virus can be passed to an infant during childbirth if the mother is infected.
Risk factors for hepatitis B infection include:

• Being born, or having parents who were born in regions with high infection rates (including Asia, Africa, and the Caribbean)
• Being infected with HIV
• Being on hemodialysis
• Having multiple sex partners
• Men having sex with men

(From the NIH)

I honestly don't see a risk for my newborn...we are monogamous virgins and I can be tested before birth to make sure that I don't have it. It still seemed odd to be so worried about Hep B in a newborn when they can get the shot at 2 months anyway. So I did a little PubMed research and found that it seems that the CDC instituted the policy (2005, I think) because parents weren't bringing the babies back for their shots at their later checkups. I'll have to go back and find the article--a quick search didn't bring it up.

So it seems like they are trying to hit the lowest common denominator with this one...which is fine, but we aren't the lowest common denominator. And the literature on the CDC's website upsets me a little because it is slightly misleading--listen to the podcast...they say Hep B can be transmitted by "close contact." When I think close contact, I think of someone holding my child, not molesting her or shooting her up with a needle! DH was surprised, too.


So in this particular situation, I don't feel like my newborn should risk an adverse reaction because the CDC is assuming I'm not going to following through with my newborn's care. I understand why they do it routinely due to infected mothers, etc., but in my case, it seems more risky to do the vaccine at birth rather than wait 2 months.

[diggitydot]

Everyone thinks they're the exception. I'm not saying you or your baby have any risk factors for it, but part of the reason we're losing herd immunity is because parents are relying on other people getting vaccinations on schedule to keep their own unvaccinated kid from getting whatever preventable disease they're choosing to delay inoculating against.

[Deebs]

Sooner - just a little food for thought. Yes, Hep B was instituted at birth due to patient "loss" (although some hospitals don't do it inpatient - it's not universal). BUT, it can be transmitted via bite. My DD was never bitten while in daycare, but after I became a SAHM, and in bizarre circumstances. Also, Hep B, while classified as sexually transmitted, does survive much longer outside the body than other STDs, such as HIV. It can live for days outside the human body. Just something to think about.

[BonBon]

My thoughts on this are thus: anyone who thinks vaxes are bad/dangerous/evil needs to go to the older section of the cemetery. Take a long walk around reading all the graves. It is heartbreaking to see all the children's graves, many families having lost multiple children. I can't even imagine living in such a world.

[SoonerTexan]

parents are relying on other people getting vaccinations on schedule

To be clear, my issue is with getting it at birth, not at 1-2 months, and with this one particular vaccine. There are loads of other vaccines a child gets at 2 months or later on the standard schedule for diseases that are much more communicable. The DTaP isn't recommended until 2 months and I'm much more worried about the baby getting Whooping Cough vs. Hep B in those first 8 weeks. I realize the mother-child transmission is a very real possibility for Hep B, but I'm willing to get tested to make sure it isn't an issue.

Deb...that is freaky, but Lord help the pet/person/child that attempts to bite my newborn before 8 weeks. I feel like the risk is minimal there. The baby will get it before she is out of my direct care, though.

ETA: DH just told me there is more risk with the DTaP, but I still believe there is a small risk of reaction/side effects with any vaccine. Which inspired me to look into it a little more--these are the CDC reported side effects for the Hep B Vaccine:

Mild problems reported

• Soreness where the shot was given (up to about 1 person 4)
• Temperature of 99.9°F or higher (up to about 1
  person in 15).

Severe problems are extremely rare. Severe allergic reactions are believed to occur about once in 1.1 million doses.

1 in 15 seems like a relatively high chance for a fever. I don't worry about a vaccine-induced fever causing damage, but as someone mentioned in the other thread, fevers usual = spinal taps for young babies. I doubt any doctor would take the chance and automatically blame the vaccine and I wouldn't be okay ignoring a fever either. My brother had to go to the hospital for a fever when he was a few weeks old...my mom still hasn't gotten over how horrible the spinal tap experience was for him or her.

[scrub-jay]

As an FYI - I think Hep B is a 2 or 3 series. We got it because it allowed my dd to get one less shot on the day of the #2 or #3 booster. I was very grateful. And as a side note, go find yourself a pediatrician BEFORE the baby is born.

[v-girl]

Our ped recommends a dose of Tylenol an hour before your appointment if there are shots. If I forget, they give the kids a dose before the shots.

ST - we have a great ped in Richardson (Arapaho & Floyd) if you haven't found one yet. We fired two others before we found him (yes, M had 3 peds before she was 1) and have been with him ever since.