parenting girls....

[houseelf]

Now that it looks like there is an 80 to 90% chance that I will be raising a girl, I have started reading about the topic. This article sent chills through my spine.

http://www.rakemag.com/features/detail. ... emID=16561

After this, I'm going to convince DH that we should move to a commune in Montana somewhere to raise our children.

Kelly

[SueC]

It is scary, isn't it? I think the key is to be as involved in their lives as possible, though I'm sure that is easy for me to say at this point where my 4 year old thinks I'm the coolest person on earth. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that by some miracle there is some sort of move towards "conservativism" by the time my girls are teenagers.

[PrincessFiona]

I know, Kelly....I've seen this with Amanda already. It is starting earlier and earlier.....and I don't know what the answer is. In the first grade the focus on looks started...even requests for makeup 8O (Not happening, btw). She turned last Sunday and all she wanted was a tv for her bedroom (again...didn't happen) and clothes...and she only want dresses. She wouldn't wear her snow pants this year because they made her look fat and has heard about sex somewhere.

If the cats are laying together licking each other she screams "they're having sex!". When Thomas and I were cuddling on the sofa she screamed "You're having sex!" I'm waiting for the teacher to call me to talk about that one

8O

I agree with Sue about staying involved and discusssing these things from at an early age. We have talked a lot about smoking in our house and drugs because they talk about this stuff at school already. I refuse to buy the inappropriate clothing already available for girls her age, but sense battles coming. It is very hard to parent a girl and stress more conservative values when everywhere you look there are 1/2 naked women strutting their stuff (think Britney Spears). Amanda is very opinionated and hardheaded (like her dad ) and I already see lines being drawn in the sand between us....I've been thinking a lot about how to continue to nurture my relationship with her and teach her the values that I think are important when society is condoning something else......

good topic, Kelly.

kris

[Rapunzel]

Well, you've just read one of the primary reasons I am homeschooling my children. I am completely disenchanted with our modern cultural attitude towards childhood and adolescence. It is unacceptable in my viewpoint. I already receive comments from various people (both friends and strangers) that my son doesn't behave like an average seven-going-on-eight boy. He strikes others as more mature, more compassionate, and more in control of himself than his peers. My husband and I definitely attribute a portion of that to his innate personality - but a huge contribution comes from our (his parents') influence in his life.

I'm beginning to see marked differences in how my five year old daughters behave compared to their "normal" mostly public schooled female peers. There's a lot of behavior that I would identify as the more immature "teenage" social behavior (ie cattiness and such) that is popping up in what I would call very little girls. I'm sure it's all downward from here with many in their peer group.

I've already begun having to really fight a battle against this bizarre new cultural norm in the form of clothing. It is soooo difficult to find clothing for my five year old daughters that is not what I like to call "the Britney-hooker-whore" look. I see toddlers in string bikinis, little girls in sleeve-less midriff-baring tops, and some pathetically high-cut shorts. My husband and I have requirements for my daughters' clothing that are simple: their shirts must have sleeves and cover their bellies while their shorts/skirts must reach knee-length and cannot hang off their rear-ends. As long as they're living in our home we have both determined these are the rules - period. My daughters can express themselves fashion-wise as long as they stay within the rules.

We also severly limit the marketing our children are exposed to by canceling cable (no Nickelodeon or Disney channels) and only allowing PBS or selected movies for viewing. This sounds incredibly strict in this culture but it's the parents' job to be the authorities in their own house with the children they are raising to be the future of society.

I guess I am the "new" hippy in a way - drop out and tune out, Baby!!

I teach the youth Sunday School for my congregation. My class is made up of young people between the ages of 12 and 18. The majority of them are from the inner-city, come from fractured families, are non-white, and have severe poverty issues. Because of this I go to church every Sunday ready to talk about anything - and I mean anything. I always have a lesson planned but very often these guys have some issues for which they want adult answers and apparently I am trusted enough to be asked and listened to. It's not easy but I actually really, really enjoy this job. The youth I work with are trying very hard to go against modern culture and it's a privilege to help them. So, I guess I am optimistic from my experiences that there are young people who are bucking the trends described in that article. After all, if 89% of 18 year olds have had sex that means there is an 11% who hasn't, right?

I plan to treat my three daughters (and my son) in the same manner I am treating the young people I currently work with. I will treat them with respect and love but I will not tolerate behavior that is unacceptable. I do expect young people to behave more like adults than children in their maturity levels. If they don't then they are treated like the children they apparently long to be. Surprisingly I've found that quite a few teens are practically begging to be treated with the same attention and care that a child should receive. I know that I sometimes wanted this when I was a teenager.

But, something else I'm encountering more of is that adults my age are acting more like 16 year olds! I'm finding that more and more of my friends who seem to be on my same level are in their mid to late 30's! It's like my peers can't seem to grow up. So, I expect adults to act like adults as well and if they don't then they deserve to be treated like children.

Very good article, Kelly. It is a scary topic but one that should be thought about for sure.

Jennifer

Yikes. That is just scary.
There are many disturbing issues brought up. But, for me, one of the most disturbing is the idea of marketing this stuff to kids -- marketing sex to them. Astute parents will hold some control over what their children wear. It's hard, though, when you go to the store and a lot of the clothes for kids are just inappropriate. I bought Bryn a pair of shorts at Target the other day -- I didn't look that closely at the style, honestly. She liked the color and recognized it would match her t-shirts. We wash the sorts and put them in her drawer. When she put them on the other day, I was SHOCKED by how short they were. Yeah, she's got long legs....but come on! I find this absolutely ridiculous. I'm ok with her wearing sleeveless shirts (I roast with sleeves) but would like them to reach and go a little past her waistline. And I'd like to do that without feeling like The Church Lady! (The stores and advertisers making me feel that way, that is).

[mommax3]

Even though I always wanted to have a girl, this issue of clothing is something that I am relieved not to have to deal with! I hate the way our society sexualizes everything to the point that little girls are out there "workin' it" even though they have no idea what "it" is.....but I don't think this is really all that new. I can remember going to a Pacers game when I was in college (around 1987, I think) and a local dance school performed at half-time. The girls out there were 5 and 6 years old and they were bumping and grinding like seasoned pros while adult males watched from the stands and cheered them on. It really literally turned my stomach. When I was teaching, I was responsible for running the Talent Show at the school. I refused to allow girls to do graphic dances, which caused such a furor that eventually we stopped doing the show. I made the decision after watching an 8th grade girl do a routine to Janet Jackson's "Black Cat" that literally made me blush. I could not in good conscience allow her to get up in front of her classmates (and their dads and older brothers) and do the same routine.......but where was her mother? And where were the mothers of those little ones at the basketball game? I don't think I am a prude, either, but I really am appalled about how we as a society DON'T protect our little girls.

Sally

I hate the way our society sexualizes everything to the point that little girls are out there "workin' it" even though they have no idea what "it" is.....but I don't think this is really all that new.

Exactly!
Bryn's friend's mom was telling me about a time that her daughter (also almost 4) was watching some young women playing volleyball at a park. Some of them we wearing sports bra-type tops. She said that she wanted to have a top like that too because it looked like those girls were having so much fun. I think that the reason young girls want to look like Brittney (trashy, more so now than ever) and other stars is because it looks like they are having fun. Unfortunately, all of the innuendo and inappropriate dress comes along with it.

Maybe I'll just lock my girls in the basement until they're 30?

[Sheherezade]

I'm not crazy about the clothing choices either, but since we live on hand me downs I haven't had to face it. My daughter's only 4, so I have ..what...a few years? ....before she's bumpin' and grindin' her way around town. Yikes. None of the little girls around here are like that (or wear that). It seems to start around 6th grade (11 or 12) . That's still too young but at least it's closer to the teen years than 8.

My crazy concern mentioned in the article has to do with milk and horomones. I started buying only no horomone/organic milk for the kids after my best friend's daughter-a compulsive milk consumer-got pubic hair at 6 years old. She's 8 now and has breasts and is menstruating. The ped said it wasn't abnormal but YIKES!!!!! My friend and her husband were truly flipped out. They are pretty conservative. It doesn't seem crazy to me that horomone manipulation of dairy cattle could lead to some output in the milk supply. Needless to say, we get our calcium through many different sources and mom doesn't push the milk. Even hubby agreed after our friends' experience with their daughter. What do you guys think is leading to such ridiculously early puberty in girls these days? The article presented many different theories. Very interesting.

Angie

My crazy concern mentioned in the article has to do with milk and horomones. I started buying only no horomone/organic milk for the kids after my best friend's daughter-a compulsive milk consumer-got pubic hair at 6 years old. She's 8 now and has breasts and is menstruating. The ped said it wasn't abnormal but YIKES!!!!! My friend and her husband were truly flipped out.

8O 8O 8O

We drink organic milk too. So, uh, on the price of milk thread? I think we are paying $5 per gallon. And I buy 1% or skim so there is less fat -- aren't those hormones carried on fat or something?


I don't have any ideas about what is causing it. But after reading this article and being just a little freaked out about what teenagers are doing, I thought of a few things I could do now. The first thing that comes to mind is that it's important for young girls to have lots of positive, healthy affection from the men in their lives. I figure that if they get all the non-sexual affection they need now, maybe they won't be so prone to seeking sexual affection from males later? Worth a shot....

[Rapunzel]

I agree with you, Nellie, that little girls need a ton of non-sexual affection from their fathers and grandfathers. I have had so many friends that didn't get that and ended up making the "looking for love in all the wrong places" mistake.

The milk portion of the article I found quite interesting. I have never had organic milk or dairy - ever. I have been a total milk addict since I was a tiny child. I didn't start puberty until I was 11 (menstruation at 12). Perhaps twenty years ago hormones were not a common component of milk? My kids all consume large amounts of milk and dairy as well (not organic). At five years old my daughters don't show signs of puberty AT ALL. I'll give it a few more years before I completely lose my concern in this area. I'm definitely not going to curb any of my kids' milk drinking.

Something that I wonder about is whether a child being primarily fed formula (as opposed to breast-fed) during the first year or two of life affects the age of onset of puberty. I don't know if there is any research on that....

I thought the other reasons mentioned for early puberty in girls were intriguing: exposure to pheremones of unrelated males from an early age, stress in the family environment, and other developmental factors. It's interesting because it points to something I never actually thought about: Is puberty triggered by internal biological sources or external forces or a combination of both?

The issue of weight was the most compelling one for me. It makes a lot of sense and I would like to see a study done that shows a direct correlation with the rising number of obese/overweight girls and the diminishing average age of puberty among girls. The biology behind it combined with the decidedly environmental forces of the high-fat foods in our diets seems so simple (Occum's Razor - The simplest explanation for the same phenomenon is more likely to be accurate than the more complicated explanation). I've read articles pointing to the biology of humans inclining them to eat a higher-fat diet when possible for survival. Of course, this leads to an obese population when a human civilization becomes comfortable and wealthy (such as Americans). That biology also prompts reproduction at a certain fat content seems like it would fit in well with these other theories.

Anyway, I think the article actually tackles two different, but interrelated subjects: 1) the early puberty of an increasing number of American girls and 2) the sexualization of little girls in American society (overtones of mass acceptance of pedophilia included).

I believe science can definitively conclude in the future what is causing issue number one. Issue number two is more of a moral issue that isn't going to be fixed for a long time in my opinion.

Jennifer

[Auspicious]

Wow, I'm kind of surprised at what everyone is saying--do you really worry that much less about boys? The huge sexual pressures on them make me no less uncomfortable and no less worried about my potential sons than my potential daughters.

Also, I guess it makes sense that society-wide, earlier average puberty is going to lead to earlier average sexual activity, but . . . I feel like it's treading dangerously close to some of those tired old sterotypes about girls, like that the first girl in the class to develop is somehow automatically "the slut" or that the more developed girls are the looser ones--that somehow your body dictates your behavior and/or puberty=sex. For our kids I really hope to be able to separate those two things, in the way they view themselves and the way they view others. I wish the article had acknowledged early-onset puberty and early sexual activity more as two separate problems.

Also, I'm not saying these problems aren't real and aren't legitimate concerns for parents, because I think they are real and I'm worried about them, too, but this whole "13-year-olds are having sex" is also a full-blown media-driven trend story right now, much like all the shark attack stories three summers ago or all the little-girl-abduction stories two summers ago. This story, like those ones really is happening, but the media has latched on to it disproportionately because, like those other stories, it plays on people's absolute deepest fears: fears about their kids, fears about the unknown, fears about things that should be benign (a day at the beach, kids playing in the front yard, middle school) turning out to be horribly dangerous. I'm not saying don't worry about it, because I think that kids with good parents stand a much better chance with all this than kids with bad or clueless parents, but I think it's helpful to recognize this as a trend story in the way it's being handled in the media, in addition to being a legitimate problem in the real world.

[houseelf]

Regardless of what the cause of this phenomenon, I couldn't agree more that positive male relative (i.e. father, grandfather, uncle, brother) is key to ameliorating at least some of the influx of this widespread message. Regardless of gender, somehow we have got to make our kids feel good about themselves for just being them. (A cursory review of popular parenting theories on raising boys suggests that our society teaches them to be aggressive, detached, and emotionally stunted). Back to the topic at hand, however, engaging in sexual behavior too early will just have a spiraling down effect on any child's self confidence.

One of the many problems that I have with this phenomenon is that so much of this marketing/hype/fad/ideaology makes little girls believe that flaunting sexuality is what it means to be a woman. Yet how many of us in real life go around with our thongs hanging out of our jeans? On a personal level, maybe I'll luck out and get a tomboy who would rather climb trees than primp for reasons she doesn't entirely understand.

One aspect of this article that really struck me is that people are "stuck" in adolescence from the ages of 8 to 35. It is almost as if our society idolizes these years to the exclusion of the benefits of childhood and adulthood. I *honestly* can't believe that I'm going to espouse a theory that Dr. Laura has written about <gasp>, but there is something creepy about a 35 year old still living a bohemian frat-boy/party girl existence as well as an 8 year old wearing makeup, midriff baring tops, and leopard skin prints.

Whoa...I'm coming dangerously close to writing about something controversial and political , although it seems like we are all in agreement and fear of the same thing. Mea culpa.

Of course, the rhetorical question and ultimate task boils down to this: Although this behavior is constantly reinforced and idolized, how do we teach our children that this is not acceptable or even normal behavior? I wish us each lots of luck with this one. If all else fails, anyone else want to move to a commune in Montana with me?

Kelly

[Auspicious]

but there is something creepy about a 35 year old still living a bohemian frat-boy/party girl existence

I totally agree, and I think one of the reasons you see so many 10-year-olds dressed like Britney is because they're being parented by 35-year-old frat boys and party girls.

I *honestly* can't believe that I'm going to espouse a theory that Dr. Laura has written about <gasp>,

Well, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

re: the breastfeeding point, Jennifer. This is what I think -- to the extent that formula fed babies have a higher tendency to grow to be overweight children and the contribution of overweight to early puberty, the feeding is a factor.

I looked on the Dr. Weil.com website to see if there were any comments about early puberty and milk consumption. Here are three:
http://www.drweil.com/app/cda/drw_cda.h ... ionId=4060

http://www.drweil.com/app/cda/drw_cda.h ... ionId=6070

http://www.drweil.com/app/cda/drw_cda.h ... nId=326610[/i]

[Rapunzel]

I very much liked your last post, Kelly. And, I agree with your viewpoint expressed there wholeheartedly.

Julie, you bring up a good point - it's not just girls. Obviously early sexual experimentation involves boys/men as well. There really is a huge amount of pressure on little boys to be hyper-sexual in our society. I remember happening upon a Howard Stern radio show while driving in the car one day and he was commenting on how "all" eight year old boys masterbate (anyone with an internet filter just had this post filtered out ) "profusely". Ummmm..... My seven year old son doesn't even have a clue as to what that is (the action - not just the word itself). Since I'm with him all day with homeschooling I know this for a fact. There seems to be in our popular media this expectation that little boys act like teenagers or grown men prior to even reaching puberty. I have very much shielded my son from this societal push because I want him to have time to <gasp> be a child!

Anyway, I am so glad you brought it up, Julie. It is something bad for both little girls and little boys.

Nellie, thank you for following the mental reasoning through with breastfeeding vs bottlefeeding. For some reason that possible series of events didn't cross my mind until I read what you wrote! Thanks for the links, as well. I haven't read them yet - but I will once I'm done cruising this site.

Jennifer