parenting girls....

[Flynn]

I think the key for me is that the parents needs to be very careful not to demean others, while at the same time, they teach their children (boys and girls) what is acceptable in their house.

I too wanted to dress like my friends (this isn't anything new ie the Madonna craze in the 80s), go to concerts at 13, and wear makeup (lots) in Jr. High, but my parents had "acceptable" parameters for our household. I didn't feel suffocated, but I did feel like we had rules that were different from other houses. I eventually realized that while my friends were all generally good people, some were pretty trashy -- but not because my parents said they were. I think that was an important lesson for me and it caused me to rebel within reason which, looking back, was a pretty tame expression of my teenage years.

If you build a strong relationship with a child, then set some boundaries that don't make your kids "the different kids" yet show them by example that some clothes, music, and programs on TV are not appropriate for "our" family. What other's do is their choice.

Balance -- as with most everything -- is a big key here.

I adore my daughter, look forward to every new phase in her life and am not daunted by society and its portrayal of young women. We'll do just fine despite all the mixed messages out there.

While we are talking about this, I would like to "plug" that the child's educational environment can either encourage or discourage negetive gender stereotypes. Not entirely, of course, but I remember where I went to high school verses where I ended up teaching before my daughter was born, and I could have benefitted from the environment where I taught. My high school I graduated from was fine but there was way too much sociall emphasis placed on silly things that were not stressed as much in the school where I taught.

It can make a big difference!

I guess I feel pretty fortunate that so far my 9 yr old daughter shows no signs of pressure to have to fit in regarding dress, age inappropriate behavior, or other hypersexual activities. It's a good morning if I don't have to remind her to brush her hair! Since she's a bit on the shy side, her friends are also pretty low key and low maintenance.

I go up to to her recess a few times a week and so I know what she does when she "hangs out." It's pretty tame - playing tag, horses, jumping rope. But I have also seen other girls in her class lining up and doing cheers and acting like they are on some drill team. It's funny to watch and my daughter just thinks they look silly. Of course we live in a pretty conservative state and so I think that has a little to do with it too. There are also a few girls who run around trying to kiss boys so it's not completely sheltered although I think it's not the norm and these girls are generally seen as "girls to keep an eye on."

I definitely think it's important to be home when your kids are home from school even if they are old enough to take care of themselves. I think that is the time when "things" happen - kids with time on their hands and no supervision. I've heard too many crazy stories about high school orgies after school while mom and dad are at work. And of course after the whole Monica Lewinski thing, many kids have the mindset that they really "aren't doing anything wrong."

I worry about my sons for different reasons. I think these days boys aren't really allowed to be boys. If they're a little rowdy, it's too easy to throw some Ritalin their way and label them ADHD. I think boys are actually conditioned to act like...well, girls. I can't even imagine my sons at this age even caring about girls much less sex. Girls mature faster in this arena, I think.

Another reason why parenting is an all-consuming job. Just can't let your guard down I guess.

[Rapunzel]

Thu Van, you DO live in a very conservative state so I wouldn't be surprised in the least if the average behavior of the children in your area is much different from the behavior I've seen here (and in TX). I was in a debate on the Student Doctor Network some time ago where I pointed out that statistically Utah has a much lower rate of teen pregnancies than the rest of the nation. It's no surprise to me that roughly 40% of the population in Utah is LDS because one of the basic things we teach our children is complete self-control in sexual matters.

Anyway, I am not planning on moving to Utah anytime in the future but I do think you will find, Thu Van, that the average for children in Utah is closer to what I expect of and instill in my own children.

Jennifer

[Rapunzel]

I worry about my sons for different reasons. I think these days boys aren't really allowed to be boys. If they're a little rowdy, it's too easy to throw some Ritalin their way and label them ADHD. I think boys are actually conditioned to act like...well, girls. I can't even imagine my sons at this age even caring about girls much less sex. Girls mature faster in this arena, I think.

Another reason why parenting is an all-consuming job. Just can't let your guard down I guess.

I forgot to add this in my previous post:

I COMPLETELY agree with this. I think that my son is well-behaved but he cannot sit still! He is very active and fidgety but that behavior appears perfectly normal to me for a little boy. My daughters, in contrast, can sit very, very still and don't accidentally yell while having a normal conversation . I think if my son went to public school academic boredom combined with his natural "boy" activity level would get him labeled with some sort of "learning disability" .

Anyway, your right parenting IS an all-consuming job and this is just one good reason why.

Jennifer

BTW, Flynn, with what passes as the "norm" in our society I will count it as a positive thing if my kids are the "different" people. My husband and I are most certainly "different" than the norm around us due to our religious way of life and because of this we have many less worries (ie the problems associated with drinking alcohol, using tobacco, extra and pre marital sex, etc). I don't think my kids being the "different" kids would be a bad thing at all!

[Flynn]

A few thoughts relating to Jennifer and then just some tangents....

I agree that the "norm" in society is not necessarly a place to strive for with regard to what is tolerated with children's, dress, behavior, grades, etc. I anticipate I will definitely require more from my daughter than a large majority of her friends' parents. My parents did but they did within reason. They chose their battles and gave in on less influencial topics. I have a great respect for them as a result and I felt "heard" and "valued" as a child every day of my life.

There is a fine line though between being different and being ostracized. Many kids who are "too sheltered" (whatever that means) go nuts as teenagers when they have great relationships with their parents. I've seen it over and over and over......
They've never had the freedom to be their own people so they rebel either a little or a lot when they reach a certain age.

Kids who have had some say in their lives are less likely to go against their parents' wishes because they feel like they do have choices. They feel like they participate in their lives and they aren't "puppets" their parents control. I think it's dangerous to believe your child will grow up to value and believe everything that the parent believes because that's how "they were raised."

Also, regardless of whether we agree with other families' decisions I believe it's our role as parents to teach kids they have choices without condemning other choices. Many parents are who they are because that's how they were raised and they pass on amoral or questionable behavior as a result. They don't know any better and they are too tired and/or void of resources to reflect on how to be a better parent to their children than their parents were.

Anyway, parenting is tough any way you slice it but it's a priveledge as well. I'm glad all of us at this site are passionate about our responsibilities within parenting and living a "full" life.

Well, actually I couldn't disagree more with Flynn.

I was raised according to my parents' values. As was my husband (our parents held the same values according to our religious beliefs). We both fully subscribe to our parents' values because we were raised that way. Most of our friends are the same way. Those who we know who were raised without any firm value structure from their parents are prone to a lack of value structure as well. It's not called having "puppets". It's called raising your children with the tools necessary to succeed in life without compromising their integrity.

I believe it's our role as parents to teach our children they have choices - and that many of those choices are harmful and have unfortunate consequences. I am not going to give my children the false sense that there is no right and wrong in life. Those parents who pass on amoral behaviors are most definitely not giving their children the tools necessary to avoid the major avoidable mistakes in this life. Those children have a much harder road to hoe. My dad (whom I've mentioned before) was one of those children. Because of the way he was raised he made sure that his children understood that there are wrong choices with difficult and harmful consequences. I am very thankful for that.

There are children who are taught right and wrong who rebel later in life. I was one of those children. I made some very bad choices when I left home as a newly-minted adult. I knew those choices would only bring me heartache (which they did) and it was my parents' teachings that got me back on track. I am glad that I was what would be considered "sheltered" as a child. If sheltering means protecting your children from the harmful influences of the world before they are ready to confront them and arming your children with the ability to discern between correct and incorrect choices then I think being sheltered is just a term for good parenting. Unfortunately I believe that you intend the term "sheltered" to be a derogatory one. I am raising my children to be able to discern beneficial from harmful choices and why those choices are good or bad. They need a compass in life and it is my duty to give it to them.

On the topic of ostracism: Who is at fault in such a situation - the person who is ostracized or the one(s) doing the ostracism? I am attempting to instill in my children that they don't have to subscribe to the whims of whoever is around them at the time. If they encounter individuals who are so lacking in social skills that ostracize others then those individuals have a serious problem that will end up hampering them in life. Because I cannot control the actions of others I cannot prevent my children from ever being ostracized through their lives. But, I can teach them how to find inner strength in the face of such challenges.

I don't think it is unreasonable to teach my children to recognize good and bad choices. I don't think it is unreasonable to help my children understand that every action has a reaction and, thus, they should carefully choose their actions and develop good habits that facilitate beneficial decisions in their futures. That is practically my definition of what parenting is!

I guess I've seen an entirely different world than you, Flynn. Because the kids I know whose parents were firm and kind in their convictions of right and wrong have mostly raised children who ended up drawing upon their teachings in their own adulthoods. Boundaries are a good thing. The youth (ages 12 - 18) that I work with have expressed this to me many times. Many of them have openly wished that their parents would set firm boundaries with consequences for inappropriate behavior. The ones I work with whose parents communicate to them that there is a right and wrong but it's fine with them if they choose the wrong have a strong desire for consistancy - that it isn't OK to do whatever you want to do. These kids are begging for this important form of love from their parents. Unfortunately those parents are under the idea that "freedom" is more important than knowledge of right and wrong. I've learned with maturity that one is actually much more free with the ability to know and choose beneficial choices (as opposed to harmful ones).

Sorry we disagree in our basic understanding of good parenting. But, it appears we do.

Jennifer

[Rapunzel]

Jon and I were talking about this subject (he was reading over my shoulder) and I came to a realization as to why I decided to make wrong choices as a young adult in the face of what I had been taught my entire life by my parents:

I developed the erroneous idea that because choosing the wrong option is often the easier way somehow the consequences wouldn't be that bad (or even would somehow make my life easier). Boy was I wrong!

What I discovered instead was that one wrong choice often led to another and another until I felt trapped in a lifestyle that was painful and harmful to me physically, mentally, and spiritually. Somewhat like spinning your own web around yourself. It was difficult to extricate myself from the complex problems that had resulted from my self-destructive and self-defeating choices. But, I managed to with the loving support and guidance of people like my parents who, through their firm convictions, were able to help me pinpoint the areas of my life that I had chosen poorly in. Through this process I discovered that they were right the entire time! That realization required quite a bit of humbling on my part, and I wish I had come to that conclusion in a much less hurtful way as most of my friends did, but I am glad that I was able to realize this before I made any more life-altering self-destructive decisions.

What I knew to begin with (during my childhood and teens) and what I have experienced throughout the last ten years is that making the right choice can often be more difficult than making the destructive choice due to things like ostracism from peer pressure (although as I have made good choices in who I choose to associate with I have had this problem less and less). However, I have found that, though sometimes requiring courage to make, the good choices have greatly simplified and enhanced my life. And, my husband and I do have a much simpler (and thus, dare I say easier?) life because our good decisions have built upon our good decisions and so on.... to the point which we are at now.

How could I not pass this important lesson on to my own children?

So, as Jon and I sit here reflecting on the subject that is what struck me. I have been acting on this learned principle for many years now but this is the first time I was able to put it into written words. I am glad that this thread helped me do this.

Jennifer

[Flynn]

As I sit and read some responses, it facinates me that so many assumptions were made about my most recent post in this forum.

Obviously this is a layered issue on many levels and my past limited response was neither complete nor specific (my choice) because I chose to be vague. It appears that inaccurate assumptions were made (quite a few actually and suprisingly) about my idea of "choices" within parenting. So a few follow up thoughts on this topic....

I feel very strongly that in our house there will be expectations regarding behavior, what is appropriate to watch on TV, clothing, achievement in school, serving the community, and eventually curfews to only name a few. There will be consequences for making poor choices within our family "rules." I firmly believe that over indulging your child is a form of neglect with regard to everything from priveleges, to material items.

However, with that being said, I believe that there are very few absolutes in life or areas where exceptions should not be taken into consideration when they present themselves. I think the language of "right and wrong" dangerously simplifies life. Within each category (right and wrong) there are many roads to travel and yes, there are consequenses that come with all choices.

A few examples:
I am fundamentally against drugs (illegal and not prescribed by a doctor) have never tried any -- nor do I intend to, and will teach my children that it is unhealthy, illegal, dangerous and not appropriate for our family. Yet, I occasionally have a glass of wine at dinner and don't believe I am morally abhorrent as a result.

I detest pornography but passionately support the first ammendment.

I would never take another life -- unless protecting myself or another innocent human being.

I believe in God, go to a particular church (being vague here on purpose) and do not believe that organized religion is the root of all evil. Yet I support, respect, and honor all the contributions that other religions, agnostics, aetheists, and homosexuals have brought to our world. I don't believe that people who fundamentally disagree with my faith are destined to go to hell -- any more than I believe that homosexuals choose to be gay.

Finally, I believe that all human beings have a responsibility to be polite and respectful to their "fellow man." However, I would be quite proud of my daughter if she stood up for a classmate who was being bullied, or took issue with someone making a racial joke or stereotype in her presense regardless of how old the offender was.

So, to say I believe that children have "choices" I believe that there are many, many ways of living that are moral and appropriate -- not just one way. Along those same lines, I have to realize that my choices for my daughter might not be what she chooses for herself as she matures into an adult and that is completely ok! I am not raising her to be a clone of me or her father, but rather an intelligent, free - thinking woman. (Now, we are still talking about "appropriate parameters here" I am not suggesting she go off and smoke dope, have sex and live off the government as soon as she is out of my house!!!!)

More specifically, if my daughter grows up and decides to practice a religion other than the one she was raised in, more power to her! I will look forward to learning about her faith and why she is passionate about it.

It is interesting to me that my short and incomplete post on such a broad topic provoked such a venomous and personal response. I obviously touched a nerve with words such as "sheltered" and "ostracized." That was not my intention, although I can see how that could have been perceived as an attack. I'm not saying anyone on this board has done this, but with the best intentions, some families go a little overboard with being "right" and leading a "different" and "moral" life -- so much so that it becomes their bumper sticker in life. It is a badge they wear with pride and I'm not sure that's very healthy.

Do I have more faith in the "common man" (to use a literary term) than I should? Perhaps. I think where we are as a society (in many areas but not all areas) is scary and such an underachieving place to be -- it's sad. However, I do have an enthusiastic faith in individual people. When you meet someone one on one who doesn't look, act or support what you support, many times you come to find that they are solid, good people who you have much in common with, outside the obvious differences and more importantly someone to learn from. It gives me hope, teaches me a lesson about being too quick to judge, and hopefully adds another face to people I call "friends."

So that's about it I guess.
Take it for what it's worth.

[houseelf]

I didn't realize that this post would go into this direction. Although I don't have the time or energy to respond to this with the painstaking detail it merits, I don't see how the ideal of tolerance merits such controversy and disagreement. Although these posts are presented as such, they are not completely incongruent logic.

Of course we teach our children what we believe, and as a consequence, we have to explain the inevitable questions of why others do things differently. Therein lies the hard part....we have to let them grow up and let them decide for themselves. As Khalil Ghibran opined, our children do not belong to us.

On a less esoteric level, this means that I have to explain to my son that there are different sets of rules at different houses. He has a friend who at four years old has a tv in his room and owns a game boy. Our house rules dictate that he will not be allowed either of these (at least no game boys for several more years). The standard four year old response is "oh man" or "that is not fair". When he gets to be a late teenager, we can readdress some of these rules. When he is an adult, he could be a media fiend and there won't be a damn thing that I can do about it. I tried my hardest. Parenting is love and let go.

Frankly, this is just a minor issue....I won't even get into some of the meatier crap like gun control and socialized violence with which we will have to deal.

The tenor of this thread reminds me of a thread on ivillage's "August 2004 expecting" club. People are hell-fired up about whether one should pierce an infant girl's ears. While my daughter will not be permitted to do so until she turns 12, again, house rules, I don't see an infant baby girl with earrings and believe that her parents are destining her for a life of inappropriate hypersexualized behavior.

In a similar vein, my parents wouldn't allow me to wear the color black (!) or animal prints. Yet, you'd better believe that I spent my babysitting money on those "Flash dance" off-the-shoulder style sweaters and leg warmers because I wanted to dress like the other kids. Parenting is that fine line between guiding and letting go.

Quite frankly, I'll wear the scarlet letter and admit that I have committed various sundry of sins which certainly exceeded my parents' careful guidance. I'm at a point in my life where I no longer regret any of these youthful indiscretions but just accept that sometimes things just are the way that they are. In fact, some of these experiences create a fear which spurs me to be a better parent and will serve well in useful during future talks with my children. (DH and I already have a speech prepared for "you are responsible for every sperm which leaves your body").

Anyway, I don't see how this thread is so controversial when we all agree that one way or another, every parent has his or her hands full when it comes to tempering outside influences on our children's development. This is why parenting advice is a multimillion dollar industry when the truth of the matter is that some component of child development truly is beyond our control.

Kelly

Kelly

[Meenah]

I have to agree with you Kelly. As the mother of two daughters we also had our own house rules. Some more lenient and some more strict than our daughter's friends had.

We are given these tiny babies, and from day one our job (in my humble opinion) is to teach them how to survive, and thrive without us. My girls are now 19 & 20, and I know I made my share of mistakes.

I think one of the best things I have given them is the ability to look at life and know they have choices, many choices. If they make a bad choice they both seem to have the ability to look at the situation and find a way to remedy it! Parentiong isn't easy, nor is it a dictatorship!!!! Good luck to all of you.
Luanne

Wow, I'm kind of surprised at what everyone is saying--do you really worry that much less about boys? The huge sexual pressures on them make me no less uncomfortable and no less worried about my potential sons than my potential daughters.

So, I'm a little slow to respond....but I see what you're saying. I think part of it is now having two girls. I think my "girl issue" radar has been heightened and I seem to be more aware of books that cater to parenting girl type stuff. And if I had boy(s), I think I would be concerned about the messages they are picking up about how their sexuality should look.

I don't feel like I have run into any major girl specific stuff at this point. Well, except some arguements about cutting her "long and beautiful" hair. The middle school and high school stuff seems daunting from my perspective of having a preschooler and infant. I think that as she grows into that age and we grow ready for that age as parents, it won't seem quite so bad and feel a little more natural. It's just hard to imagine that some day they will be as tall as me and with breasts!

Also, I'm not saying these problems aren't real and aren't legitimate concerns for parents, because I think they are real and I'm worried about them, too, but this whole "13-year-olds are having sex" is also a full-blown media-driven trend story right now, much like all the shark attack stories three summers ago or all the little-girl-abduction stories two summers ago. This story, like those ones really is happening, but the media has latched on to it disproportionately because, like those other stories, it plays on people's absolute deepest fears: fears about their kids, fears about the unknown, fears about things that should be benign (a day at the beach, kids playing in the front yard, middle school) turning out to be horribly dangerous.

True, true. If you take any less than desirable behavior and seek more information on it via chat rooms, I'm sure you would come back finding out much more than you may have wanted.

[SueC]

I haven't followed this thread all that closely, but I have to echo what Nellie said in regards to being more attuned to issues specific to parenting girls simply because up until now that is all I have raised. I haven't had to think about what I need to do to raise a confident, sensitive male before now. We have had a few issues so far in regards to parenting girls. The other day on the way home from mother's day out, my 4 year old said very matter of factly, "girls do ballet and cheerleading and boys play soccer". I was floored--being fairly athletic myself I have no clue where she came up with that. I have tried to stress to them that although they both are interested in ballet, that it is also really cool for girls to play soccer, basketball, softball, etc. Now I'm on a search for Mary Kate and Ashley videos where they are playing sports (my girls love those twins but up until now have only seen "Ballet Party"). We are far from dealing with the issues involving sexuality, but I'm pretty sure what our rules will be. I have no intention of letting my kids dress like floozies (sp?), even if it means my popularity with them will be on the decline. I don't think its cute to dress little girls in "adult clothing" and although certain family members who will remain anonymous have purchased actual "kid makeup" for my girls, I absolutely will not let them wear it.
Now that we have a boy, I'm sure there will be a brand new set of issues to deal with. I have noticed a certain "double standard" when it comes to raising boys. People seem to think its cute for a little girl to be somewhat of a "tomboy" but as soon as a little boy expresses an interest in dolls or anything pink, everyone panics about what this could mean about his sexuality! It's crazy!!!

[Amiens]

I've already begun having to really fight a battle against this bizarre new cultural norm in the form of clothing. It is soooo difficult to find clothing for my five year old daughters that is not what I like to call "the Britney-hooker-whore" look. I see toddlers in string bikinis, little girls in sleeve-less midriff-baring tops, and some pathetically high-cut shorts. My husband and I have requirements for my daughters' clothing that are simple: their shirts must have sleeves and cover their bellies while their shorts/skirts must reach knee-length and cannot hang off their rear-ends. As long as they're living in our home we have both determined these are the rules - period. My daughters can express themselves fashion-wise as long as they stay within the rules.

I have to agree! We have the same rules in our home regarding clothing, and Emma is 2 1/2 yrs old. We heard somewhere that children form their ideas of modesty by the time they are 5 years old. It is sad to think that toddlers are in a way sexualized in the clothing that is out there.

About the milk issue.... I drank regular whole milk until I think I was almost 17 yrs old when my parents switched to skim (I thought they were crazy at the time, but now I don't drink anything but). Anyway, I didn't start puberty until I was 16, so in my case it didn't have an effect on me, plus I was a formula fed kid-- you should have seen the look on my mom's face when I told her I was going to breastfeed for 12 months. My mom was also a late bloomer, I remember my doc at the time saying that genetics has a part in it.

I haven't had a lot of time to finish reading the thread. Hopefully I will have time to make more comments.

Crystal