School advice needed:

[PrincessFiona]

But, does the traditional classroom actually teach us "social" skills? Children are not to talk in class to one another, many schools now forbid talk during even lunchtime.

Kids work on group projects for most of their classes, actually. They are assigned groups for social studies, science, math, etc and problems to solve together. They talk at their lockers, they talk at recess and during lunch.

Additionally, is a Lord of the Fly's scenario (ie where children make up the social pyramid) really the most appropriate scenario for the learning of proper social skills?

You're making the assumption that there is no adult supervision, Jenn. For example..the problem with the anorexic student was dealt with quickly...and now they have adults posted at her lunch table to make sure she is not forcing others to 'not' eat etc and to make sure no teasing is going on. A 'Lord of the Fly's' scenario implies that the kids are in charge...they aren't. There are tons of negatives that I have to complain about, but this isn't one of them.

Children learn how to "socialize" from the adults around them, obviously.

They learn to socialize with adults from the adults around them...and to socialize with children from the children around them.

If the only adult they are around during the day must divide his/her attention among two to three dozen other children how much actual proper social training will a child actually get from that adult?

My daughter's classrom has 24 children in it. There is 1 teacher, 1 para and 1 student teacher. That's 1:8 Some people would argue that we do our own children a disservice by having 'so many' that we can't provide individual attention to each of them at all times.

I'd say that the fact that our prisons are overcrowded with adults who went through the public school systems and never learned to interact appropriately in society speaks volumes as to the success rate of our modern classroom experience in "socializing" people.

You are assuming a correlation between public schools and prisons, Jenn..without taking into other factors including povery, abuse and lack of access to help.

[quote:a70f0]deal with people that we don't like,

Well, I have two thoughts on this: 1) My children learn how to interact with others by watching me. They see how I interact even with those who have a lack of propriety and they learn from that. They are given an example (me) rather than thrown into the deep end of the pool with an entire group of children who also don't know how to act correctly around others. 2) If somebody is acting in a wildly inappropriate manner I know, as an adult, that I do not have to put up with such behavior. In an instutionalized classroom setting a child is given no opportunity really for recourse in such situations (Kris, your son had a classic example of this last year). Whereas adults have numerous means to conquer such situations (such as switching jobs, legal recourse, etc.).[/quote:a70f0]

Again, my children learn to interact from my husband and I as well as from their peers. We nip behaviors that we see that we don't like in the bud asap..but they can interact well with both adults and children. Our example with Andrew last year was extreme...and yet...the example with Andrew this year is extreme too. Last year was crap for all of us and it was incredibly frustrating and devastating for all....and here he is this year with a fabulous teacher...he is making friends, is team captain for his academic triathalon, is playing saxophone in the school band, was selected for 'math masters', and recently won a math award that only 3 kids out of all 5-8th graders got....He is happy, smiles all of the time and he...is in public school.

[quote:a70f0] handle incompentent bosses or bullies etc etc.

See the above. Additionally, too many people put up with incompetant bosses because they have been conditioned to do so by the public school/institutional education they received. [/quote:a70f0]

I went to public school and I didn't put up with it..I quit last year..but I quit because I could afford to. If my dh didn't earn a great salary, I would have been stuck looking for something else while raising children and trying to keep my head afloat at that job. you are assuming that people put up with crap because they are 'conditioned to'....but maybe it's because circumstances don't allow anything else.

Do you believe that residents put up with crap because they are 'conditioned' to do so? NO....they know that if they don't, their careers could be ruined before they even get started. That says more about society and societal expectations than public schools...which in my opinoin are simply a reflection of society.

[quote:a70f0]The reality is that the people in the classroom are the same people that you will be working with someday.

Is it? I think it depends upon what your goals are in life. If you look at where the "average" school graduate ends up in life I'd say that's not the type of person my children will be working with someday if I have any influence at all on them. [/quote:a70f0]

Yes, it is. Look at your neighbors, look at the people who are around you. Look at the peope that might be...working for your children then. The truth of the matter is, if they go to college, they will be in classes with these kids...if they get a job, they will work alongside of many of them. Not every public school educated child will be a drug dealer, or low-class prison escapee...many of them go on to *gasp* harvard or other big name schools. They become dawkters and lawyers and professors etc. Even some of the people in highschool whom I hoped would end up with wal-mart careers ended up striking it 'big'...ie..1 became an attorney and 2 ended up in med school....and...it killed me...but you know...they could just be in Boston treating YOUR kids...who knows?

[quote:a70f0]...and I agree that the best way for a child to learn is not with a bad teacher...and yet...we'll have bad 'teachers' at times throughout our life.

Such as? I try very hard to surround myself with good examples (ie good teachers). I am trying to train my children to do likewise and shun the bad examples rather than be forced to embrace them.[/quote:a70f0]

You aren't always going to be there, Jenn. They may have bad college professors or...med school instructors ...there isn't a good accredited online med school program yet. They may have jackasses for attendings while they are residents or may end up in the military having to take orders from someone dumber than they are....they may have a bad boss on the job...and may not be able to just say "i quit" and walk away to find something else if they have a mortgage payment or children, etc.

[quote:a70f0]I'm not saying that I think this 'real world' is any good either.

I think the real world of which you speak is only considered such because so many have been conditioned to believe that the crap they go through in most instutionalized educations was as good as it gets (or pretty close to it). Acceptance of the mundane or the out-right bad is not the real world - it's just surrender.[/quote:a70f0]

It's not the fault of the institutions, it is the fault of society.

The fact is that my kids get to see how I deal with the negative things life throws at me. They also see how their father and other relatives and close friends deal with these issues. They learn from adults who love them dearly and provide the best examples they possibly can. It is a complete fallacy to say that one must go through a public school environment or one similar in order to learn how to interact properly in society. The school classroom as we know it is a recent invention having only been around for a little over a century. Prior to that most people learned at home, in tiny community-run classes or, for the rich and priveleged, from private tutors. The literacy rate in the United States before public education became the norm was in the 90th percentile.

You have addressed several issues here. My kids also see how I handle negative things life tosses me...and they see how their friends handle things...and their teachers...and we talk about it and what the right/wrong way to handle things is...it is a teaching moment. Of course kids don't have to go through a public school environment...at the same time, public school is not child abuse, Jenn. Our literacy rate is affected by several things including a large number of mexican immigrants who don't speak english (I'm just speaking from my tx experience here) as well as other immigrants...There are many other factors that play a role...don't be so quick to simply blame the schools.

I find the social experience found in a situation where a child must sit for hours on end in silence or near-silence surrounded by dozens of those born only within his exact same birthyear while a single adult dictates to them all what, when, and how they will do everything as entirely out of sync with the way society actually functions beyond the institution's walls. It's an appropriate experience for a robot perhaps, but not for producing a socialized individual with a good self-understanding.

It's time for you to go and make a visit at a public school. I have showed up on many occasions and have never, ever experienced what you are describing here. You're out of touch, my dear friend. My children LOVE school...they love being with their friends, they love the group projects, art projects, music classes and all of the 'fun' learning things that they do all day long. I want you seriously to get a babysitter, go unannounced into a school and have a look...you'd fall over...you are dead wrong on that one. I'd never put my kids into the environment that you are describing, and my children, quite frankly, wouldn't want to go.

[PrincessFiona]

OK...I have to add one more thing. I think that my kids sometimes do too many fun things, Jennifer...Here's my latest example.....though there are many:

Fridays at the Middle school are "theme days' and the kids don't know the theme until they get there...Last Friday it was 'Native American' day...and the kids had to dress up in native american dress once they arrived. The 'costumes' went over their regular clothes. They also played traditional games that native american children played, ate food appropriate to the native american theme, made dreamcatchers and learned the story behind them, etc. Andrew came home and talked for over an hour non-stop about everything he had learned.

When you tell me that these theme days are a normal part of the homeschooling experience, I'll be more convinced that homeschoolers are yuckin it up, while my public school educated children are sitting around like robots.

[Rapunzel]

Kids work on group projects for most of their classes, actually. They are assigned groups for social studies, science, math, etc and problems to solve together. They talk at their lockers, they talk at recess and during lunch.

Well, the fact of the matter is that recess is being cut from many school programs. And, I do recall a thread on here not too long ago discussing the problems with rushed lunches and children not being able to communicate verbally during lunch. Has that all changed? I have friends whose kids are in public school in both Texas and Massachusetts and I know that they have the same problem of lack of social interaction during the school day.

You're making the assumption that there is no adult supervision, Jenn. For example..the problem with the anorexic student was dealt with quickly...and now they have adults posted at her lunch table to make sure she is not forcing others to 'not' eat etc and to make sure no teasing is going on. A 'Lord of the Fly's' scenario implies that the kids are in charge...they aren't. There are tons of negatives that I have to complain about, but this isn't one of them.

Well, you are pointing out the necessity of children interacting with very little adult supervision (recess for example). There's an outstanding book out there called "Queen Bees and Wannabes" that goes into the "pecking order" that is established by girls in particular outside of adult supervision. "The Lord of the Fly's" is an extreme version of such a scenario - but the reality is that children learn best how to interact socially from socially mature adults rather than other socially immature children.

They learn to socialize with adults from the adults around them...and to socialize with children from the children around them.

Actually I believe that children learn how to interact correctly socially with people by observing the behavior of socially mature adults. I know children can learn all sorts of social behavior from children who are their equals in social immaturity. Whether or not it's correct social behavior will depend upon, once again, the bits of adult behavior they with which they are already familiarized. If you were to have a group of children grow up without any adult interaction you would have children that formed a society distinct from that of their remote parents. Whether that society would be in any way similar to other adult societies would depend upon chance. Social customs and traditions are learned - not genetic. And, the way for such things to be passed down is via those who are already learned and experienced in those social skills.

My daughter's classrom has 24 children in it. There is 1 teacher, 1 para and 1 student teacher. That's 1:8 Some people would argue that we do our own children a disservice by having 'so many' that we can't provide individual attention to each of them at all times.

That's great that your school district's budget allows the hiring of so many ancillary adults to help out in classrooms. I'd wager that most school districts in the nation do NOT have the funds to hire so many additional staff.

You are assuming a correlation between public schools and prisons, Jenn..without taking into other factors including povery, abuse and lack of access to help.

Actually, I'm just pointing out that someone who ends up committing a crime has not been properly socialized - regardless of poverty level or ethnicity. Crimes are, by their very nature, anti-thetical to societal values. Therefore, criminals have not been socialized properly. And, if our schools are the primary purveyors of "socialization" then they have failed the millions of people who have attended them and somehow emerged lacking proper societal values by becoming criminals. Realistically, if schools are responsible for instilling societal norms and values and proper interaction in individuals then we must assume that those individuals who emerge from their walls sans such knowledge and know-how are the result of school's failure.

Now, if schools are NOT the primary repositories of the knowledge and skills required to properly interact in society then they (the schools) are not at blame for the failure of so many millions to acquire those skills while in those institutions.

Again, my children learn to interact from my husband and I as well as from their peers.

And, that is my entire point. Schools are not and should not be viewed as the proper place for a child to learn how to interact in society.

Do you believe that residents put up with crap because they are 'conditioned' to do so? NO....they know that if they don't, their careers could be ruined before they even get started. That says more about society and societal expectations than public schools...which in my opinoin are simply a reflection of society.

Well, yes, I do believe residents are conditioned to put up with the crap that they do. The residency system was historically the fruit of the military surgical training system where people had to abide by the rigid constructs of the military in order to be allowed to train. What we see now is the gradual devolution from that state.

My husband decided to run for chief because he didn't want to put up with the crap he was experiencing. Rather, he wanted to be the source of positive change in his program. Additionally, he chose a program and a specialty that incurs the least amount of social irresponsibility. If everyone did the same you would see surgical programs (using that particular specialty as an example but it applies to others, as well) be forced to change their methods of dealing with people because they would have an extreme crisis on their hands. People treat others like crap because they are given permission to do so by those which they treat in that manner. The same even applies to my marriage in a way! When my husband treats me crappily it is because he feels safe in doing so - knowing after all these years that I will not leave him because of his bad behavior . It's the basic process of enablement in a nutshell.

Yes, it is. Look at your neighbors, look at the people who are around you. Look at the peope that might be...working for your children then. The truth of the matter is, if they go to college, they will be in classes with these kids...if they get a job, they will work alongside of many of them. Not every public school educated child will be a drug dealer, or low-class prison escapee...many of them go on to *gasp* harvard or other big name schools. They become dawkters and lawyers and professors etc. Even some of the people in highschool whom I hoped would end up with wal-mart careers ended up striking it 'big'...ie..1 became an attorney and 2 ended up in med school....and...it killed me...but you know...they could just be in Boston treating YOUR kids...who knows?

Actually, historically there is a group of private schools that have dominated Harvard's enrollment through the decades. That has changed somewhat recently due to affirmitive action and such - but the same still holds true. The fact is the vast majority of public school graduates go on to basically flip burgers. Look at the statistics of the number of people who graduate from public high school and then do not go on to a higher education. Additionally, the number of parents who are now homeschooling their kids is growing exponentially. I'm willing to bet that you're going to see more and more people who have been educated outside of the traditional school systems in more prominant positions over the next few decades. When I look back on history I see that many enormous historic figures were NOT the product of traditional school systems.

A book you should read is "The Underground History of American Education" by John Gatto (who was himself an awarded and recognized public school teacher). In it he discusses how the industrial barons of the late 19th/ early 20th century supported public education as a means to have a more efficient working class to supply labor to their factories. The other useful purpose of the founding of public schools was to integrate the thousands and thousands of new immigrants into American culture. In both those ways public schools meet their goals - they provide a minimally educated, compliant worker-class as well as integration into a more homogenous culture. I'm not saying either goals are wrong - but I don't believe that is the appropriate set of goals for my own children.

[quote:ae24d]Such as? I try very hard to surround myself with good examples (ie good teachers). I am trying to train my children to do likewise and shun the bad examples rather than be forced to embrace them.

You aren't always going to be there, Jenn. [/quote:ae24d]

Nope, I wont' always be there. That is why it is so important for me to train my children by my own example (re: How to cope with crummy people). I'd rather train my children on how to avoid such people or change the situation to their benefit than have them simply learn how to "shut up and put up" with mediocrity or outright antagonism.

[quote:ae24d]I think the real world of which you speak is only considered such because so many have been conditioned to believe that the crap they go through in most instutionalized educations was as good as it gets (or pretty close to it). Acceptance of the mundane or the out-right bad is not the real world - it's just surrender.

It's not the fault of the institutions, it is the fault of society. [/quote:ae24d]

But, how do you feel the institution of public education correlates with society exactly?

You have addressed several issues here. My kids also see how I handle negative things life tosses me...and they see how their friends handle things...and their teachers...and we talk about it and what the right/wrong way to handle things is...it is a teaching moment.

So, once again, YOU are the primary means of your children's teaching experience regarding how to interact with other people. The school experience provides you with fodder for that experience. My point is that the temproray school experience is not an accurate reflection of the actual social experiences a child will face in life. The fodder that I use are actual real social experiences that my children will be repeatedly exposed to their entire lives.

Of course kids don't have to go through a public school environment...at the same time, public school is not child abuse, Jenn. [quote:ae24d]

I don't believe it is child abuse. I do believe that in order to understand the current school structure in our nation one must learn about the reasons as to why it was created when the populace was already receiving adequate educations.

[quote:ae24d]Our literacy rate is affected by several things including a large number of mexican immigrants who don't speak english (I'm just speaking from my tx experience here) as well as other immigrants...There are many other factors that play a role...don't be so quick to simply blame the schools.

But, wait a second here: If the schools are responsible for teaching children how to read then they have failed every child that emerges unable to read. Simple.

It's time for you to go and make a visit at a public school. I have showed up on many occasions and have never, ever experienced what you are describing here. You're out of touch, my dear friend. My children LOVE school...they love being with their friends, they love the group projects, art projects, music classes and all of the 'fun' learning things that they do all day long. I want you seriously to get a babysitter, go unannounced into a school and have a look...you'd fall over...you are dead wrong on that one. I'd never put my kids into the environment that you are describing, and my children, quite frankly, wouldn't want to go.

[/quote:ae24d][/quote:ae24d]

I have my friends who have children in public schools to thank for my knowledge of current public schools (you are one of them but most of these friends are in the DFW and Boston areas). I'm sure there are good aspects to education in public school systems - in fact, I know there are. But, the question is if the good outweighs the bad. For me, regarding my children, the answer is that it doesn't. I'm actually appalled at what goes on in the schools in the city of Boston AND the surrounding "privileged" suburbs. I'm less appalled at what occurs in the school systems my friends have their children attend in North Texas - but I still would never send my children to those institutions.

The fact is that a child does not need an exterior institution such as school imposed upon him/her in order to learn how to function in society. The idea that anyone would send their child to public school because they need to be "socialized" is ludicrous. Send your child to public school for a multitude reasons but don't think that you must send your child there or else they will not learn how to function in society!

It's not child abuse, Kris. But, I do think it would help you to know the history of American institutionalized education.

[Rapunzel]

OK...I have to add one more thing. I think that my kids sometimes do too many fun things, Jennifer...Here's my latest example.....though there are many:

Fridays at the Middle school are "theme days' and the kids don't know the theme until they get there...Last Friday it was 'Native American' day...and the kids had to dress up in native american dress once they arrived. The 'costumes' went over their regular clothes. They also played traditional games that native american children played, ate food appropriate to the native american theme, made dreamcatchers and learned the story behind them, etc. Andrew came home and talked for over an hour non-stop about everything he had learned.

When you tell me that these theme days are a normal part of the homeschooling experience, I'll be more convinced that homeschoolers are yuckin it up, while my public school educated children are sitting around like robots.

Ummmmm.... Kris, that is a NORMAL day for a homeschool child.

I'm about to head out the door with the kids on a spontaneous field trip to the science museum - because that's what we want to do today!

My kids got to spend last September and October in D.C. going through the Smithsonian museums and other public landmarks in the morning, doing their schoolwork in the afternoon, and swimming in the evenings! The homeschooling groups in our area have bookclubs where kids dress up as their favorite characters or historical figures every month. We have chess clubs, swimming groups, classes for sign language, etc. Groups of homeschool families take trips to historic locations and do cool activities like whale watching and more mundane things like ice-skating. It's the way of life!

This September we spent the month in San Antonio and Dallas where my kids got to take the behind-the -scenes tour at Sea World, for example. Because we were there during the school year there were far fewer people than normal and my kids learned an amazing amount of information about marine life.

Traveling is something that many homeschooling families do - including the less-than-well-to-do. There's actually at least one book out on how to travel as a homeschooling family for super-cheap. Why? Because traveling and the hands-on experience is incredibly important to many homeschooling families.

Homeschooling provides this flexibility for my children. I am completely unconvinced that public school could provide the same for my children.

Jennifer

[Rapunzel]

OK, I obviously just completely shut this thread down.

Soooo, everyone please ignore my posts! Do not take them personally and do not feel the need to disagree with me. I already am fairly certain 90% of people reading those opinions disagree with them and I'm OK with that. In other words,

I rained on Kris's thread;

I'm sorry, Kris;

AND I will NOT post any more disagreeable comments on this thread.

Keep going! (And, don't anyone think that I in any way implied that Kris is bad at her job. I think she is an outstanding mother and strives to make consciencious choices for her children and do what is best for them. My beef with modern schooling is like having a serious problem with President Bush but being good friends with a Republican. ).

Jennifer

[PrincessFiona]

Are you kidding? This is the most intellectual stimulation I've had all week, Jenn I've just been out doing b-day party shopping all day.

[spotty_dog]

Are you kidding? This is the most intellectual stimulation I've had all week, Jenn I've just been out doing b-day party shopping all day.

Agreed, GREAT thread, I tried to pipe up myself once or twice but I found myself getting swept away with things to say and I can't spend that much time on message board posts when I'm at work.

Jennifer, that's pretty much exactly what I envision a good homeschool/unschool environment being like. There are a lot of pros in what you've mentioned!

Kris, I agree that I do not recall being kept "robot-like" and quiet in my seat during class. For a quick recap of my "alternative" experience -- and I feel like new teacher graduates, anyway, are moving in an "alternative" direction -- we had mixed grade classes (2 years per room), lots of interaction with lower grades, lots of themed learning and self-directed learning.