public vs. private ( 1

Well, this thread really gave me the impetus to make a decision that has been rattling around in my head: I will homeschool my kids. I just ended up researching it enough to give me a final push into the direction I was heading. I have a number of good friends that already homeschool so asking them how they do it also helped I suppose. One of them put it this way: "Teach your child to read, write, and spell and they can start self-teaching in a number of subjects (which is what I basically did). Teach your child math until they hit the level of algebra, have them take an assessment exam at the local community college and they will be ready to begin college math courses. Take them on field trips. Everything else just falls into place after that." This is from a woman who has homeschooled for eight years - all of her "grown" children are now in college (every one of them starting college at 16 yrs) with a couple of them getting full scholarships to out-of-state schools. My biggest concern has been cost, but she put it this way: "Pretty much everything you need to teach your kids can be found at your library." After this conversation I realized that I CAN do this and I CAN afford it. In fact, I already have! I've already taught Alex to the point of being able to read simple text and do addition/subraction with a number line; and Jon has taught him chess, he's in gymnastics, etc. So, I guess I just kind of naturally fell into homeschooling without realizing it!!! So, that's it - I am officially a "homeschooler".



Jennifer

It's hard for me to say how I feel actually. I do know that the gifted program isn't what it used to be. There are many cuts in the Special Ed department unfortunately. I've had children in my classroom who where gifted, but then I had 3 children in my classroom with learning and/or behavior disabilities, one of which was Autistic. So, I would have to confess, that I probably spent most of my time trying to get my low level children on-level than my gifted child on a higher level. It's not that I don't think it's important because it most certainly is, but sometimes the classroom teacher get a class that is so uneven, it's hard to find a balance to who to help more. The Special Ed department really should aid us more in that area because we are cheating the gifted student. My gifted student end up doing a lot of peer teaching because he was good at it and he enjoyed it. I heard no complaints from his mother which was my homeroom mother, but I am sure she wished I did more with him. I wish that too. I had essentially NO HELP from the Special Ed department. They were lazy and didn't want to do their job, so many times I felt myself doing their job for them trying to be Super Teacher to all the children... It was something!!!



I didn't like how I was treated as a public school teacher, so when we moved from there to go to residency, I quickly signed Wesley up in a private, Christian school, but then he's been there for two years and they have their own set of different problems... So, I have learned that no matter what, I am not going to be completely satisfied with any formal education that my son gets. I personally have thought about homeschooling, but I have decided against it! I want my children to be in the real world. Formal education, whether public or private, has so many advantages in my opinion like getting along with people who do not believe as you do or have not have the same teachings as you do. I think I am a better person because of the diversity I have been around while attending these schools. Anyway, I don't know if I really adding to the discussion in a good way or not... It's just another perspective to view from...



C~ya!

Christy

Forever Friends

But, Christy, how is school away from home similar to the real world? In the real world people must deal with others of different ages, professions, creeds, etc. And, isn't one of the reasons you enroll a child into a private school with a certain religious ideology that they will be surrounded in an environment of people who believe as they do and teachers that teach from a certain perspective? In public schools children are lumped into a classroom with dozens of other kids their own age with one teacher and their interaction is disallowed (no talking). The kids are taught from one perspective - their teacher's rather than being able to interact in various environments with different people of varied ages. I used to have the same concerns over home-school situations until I really thought about what was myth and what was reality in a public/private school environment. So, I am going to put my children in the real world - they are going to be going out into the world everyday with me (interacting with both other people and nature through our excursions - just as is normal in people's lives).



Anyway, the more I research this the more I realize what a good thing it is for my kids! And, you know, Sally really is right that if you homeschool your kids early on they will probably be far too advanced academically and socially to benefit from a public high school and won't be able to go to a public school later on in the teens because of that advancement. But, I like that idea- that my kids will learn at their own pace (be it faster or slower) and if they learn everything by 14 that they'd learn in a public school, well then, that's great! Jon and I have decided if that happens we will send them through community college or even a university at that point. Jon did this - he went to a university at 16 and thrived.



I guess the only real drawback to homeschool is that I will have to work harder throughout my children's time at home - and that does concern me (the workload). But, breastfeeding was pretty difficult for me in the beginning, too. kept up with it because I knew it was best for my children. And, as I have nursed longer and with different children it's gotten easier for me to deal with the "lifestyle" and difficulties associated with nursing. In fact, I now really enjoy nursing my kids and it gives me great satisfaction knowing that I can feed them myself and get even better results than the much more convenient artificial formulas. From my interactions with other parents who homeschool I've observed that homeschooling appears to be very similar to breastfeeding in those respects - just substitute "homeschooling" for "nursing" and "public school" for "formula" .



This whole time I've been thinking back on my own public school education. I taught myself most of the subject matter because the teachers only spent a minute or two every day with each student. I was usually bored out of my skull in the "advanced" classes because they were nothing more than busy-work added to the regular curriculum. The few things that I didn't really understand from the get-go I struggled in because my teacher didn't have time to help me individually - besides I was "advanced" and not supposed to have any stumbling blocks academically. As far as my interactions with other children - I learned dirty jokes and bad words in second grade from kids whose parents let them watch porn movies (seriously!); I learned what the word "arsonist" meant in kindegarten because of one of the kids in class who was one; I actually had another child try to molest me in elementary school, and the list goes on and on. Well, you say, my children's school isn't that way - they'd tell me if any of those things occurred. Wrong! Every one of the experiences I've listed I NEVER told my mother because I was indoctrinated by my teachers that that was just the way it was - and I was scared by experiences that a small child shouldn't have and thought in my confusion that somehow I was to blame for these things (that's a very normal emotional response from little children when bad things happen to them or others). In the "real world" (ie everything outside of public school - home as a child and the adult world later on) I realized that I could walk away from people obsessed with using dirty words/telling dirty jokes - while I was held captive with people like this day after day in a public school environment, I realized that arsonists are arrested/treated, and that people who assault or touch innappropriately are prosecuted. And, those three examples I site because that is what I encountered in my first three years (ages 5- in public schools. Later on I encountered middle school kids having sex (not in front of me, though ) and high school students literally groping each other in the halls at school. Then there were the kids who were in 8th, 9th, 10th grades who still couldn't read! I think it is fair to say I did not benefit from these experiences and that I managed to grow into a healthy adult IN SPITE of the "socialization" I received at school. Something I never personally experienced but saw happen often was physical bullying - something that would have severe repercussions in the "real world" (ie charges of assault and battery and jail time). Too often the children who were bullied did nothing because it would be futile (they'd still have to be around these violent children everday and would possible be abused even more for trying to stop it by going to a grown-up who could only slap on the wrist anyway). My mom recently related to me that she wishes homeschooling had been a known option for her, she would've done it as my husband's mother had....



Anyway, to me the only positives of sending my child away everyday to a school would be more time for me during the day and no one home all day to mess the house up. Otherwise, I can teach them at a more tailored pace and with much more one-on-one interaction; they don't have to be exposed to detrimental situations before they are mature enough to handle them; I don't have to worry about strangers being in control of my children's view of the world; if my children have difficulties I know that I will put them as my highest priority with individualized attention; my children will have the benefit of being in the real-world situations that all adults face everyday- interactions with young and old in the community; my children will have the ability to be children - they won't be forced to sit for hours on end bored out of their minds without recess (or very little of it), and the benefits go on and on. In addition, I am highly concerned with the levels of sexual and emotional abuse occurring more and more in schools. That is one gamble I won't be making with my kids.



So, these are the pros and cons that have been rattling around in my head these last few days. With this list it seems really obvious to me what is best for my kids - even if it inconveniences me a bit or requires more work and dedication from me than the socially acceptable routes.



Jennifer

Jennifer:

What do you think about sending kids off to college/university at the young age of 16? I know that we could wish all day and all night that more kids did this, and more kids started college at 16, etc. but the reality is that the severe majority of college/university freshmen are 18yo. I know that I felt terribly awkward just entering college at *17* years old. Kids, even college kids, can be cruel and I would foresee the kids thinking who the heck is this genius wonderkid? Then, we get into the entire college/university social scene and while you may be against drinking, kids will experiment and . . .

It just seems as if it would foster some social maladjustment and little peer interaction.



I'm not opposed to homeschooling but I think there are comparable opportunities available out there. A lot of it depends on where you live of course - but if you are in any major/slightly major metropolitan city, surely there is a school there that can accomodate your children. We have 5yo kids who come into the bookstore and they are already reading chapter books. . .a lot of them attend the catholic, jewish, or independent private schools.



And re: the "socialization" that occurs in public schools, I think this is an area where a mother could play a vital role in explaining that what the "other" kids do at school is *not* appropriate behavior. I would never, ever wish harm on my kids at all but I think it is important for them to be exposed to the good. . .and the bad. I don't want them to grow up with rose-colored glasses on - how much of the "bad" part of society and people can you show them as a homeschooler? Are you going to drive them through the projects? And how are they going to learn how to interact with *all* sorts of people of different backgrounds, races, etc? You can't exactly walk your children up to a "diverse" person and say "hi, my kids are learning how to interact with all types of people. Could they talk to you for a few minutes?" And these are exactly the type of people that they will be forced to interact with in their future jobs, etc - even college professors! I just see homeschooling as forcing your children to live in this bubble that is not a realistic representation of what they will encounter as an adult.



I don't view my public school background as one of captivity. It was a rich and healthy experience - fortunately, I had parents who pushed me to excel, and I think that I turned out quite all right. I fully intend to enroll my future children in either public or private schools - I wouldn't enroll them in private schools to indoctrinate them with a certain ideology but possibly to engage them more with the arts.



I sense another healthy debate here!

I walk the fence on this. I used to have strong feelings against homeschooling until I began looking into it....I still don't know what the "right" answer is and maybe at the end of the day it is really as individual to a family as discipline, breast or bottle, working mom/stay at home mom etc....



I see Christy's point about the "real world" because I think that it's important for children to experience the frustrations and learn to deal with them...even learn to be self-motivated. I have many conflicting feelings about public schools because my experience was quite similar to Jennifers. I am worried about the quality of my children's education. I also recognize that we are behind the entire rest of the world (save a country in Africa and a couple of little islands) in educating our children in math and science. We consistently perform below the average on all international math and science testing....



Homeschooling though is really a different world nowadays..there are homeschooler organizations where you can take your child on field trips with other homeschoolers, take classes together (ie gymnastics for homeschoolers)...many organizations even hire professionals to teach classes and pay to enroll their child...ie a spanish class, science lab, etc....



There are so many more options with homeschooling and with the internet and the opportunity for children to take online college classes, you could potentially continue to challenge your child at home and when they are emotionally mature enough send them off to college...ie 18 or so....



I also share some of Claudia's concerns about a 16 year old going to college...though I know that there are students in these programs that are successful...we've faced the issue of whether to promote Andrew beyond the 2nd grade for next year, but aren't going to do it because we want him to be with peers that are socially in the same place as he is....



I look forward to reading the views..



Kris
Time is a Dressmaker, Specializing in Alterations!Edited by: kmmath  at: 4/18/02 4:04:31 pm

Oh goodness, I think I am not getting my point across. I am in no way opposed to homeschooling or private schools. But to answer your question, Jennifer, I took Wesley out of the public school system for different reasons, not religion-based reasons. I can't begin to tell you in writing what I went through as a good public school teacher. I made my own units & themes based on our state curriculum requirements. I found the many of our school districts textbooks to be outdated and old!! But anyway, I am not against public education nor am I against homeschooling. I have seen both work well. Actually, I am not against any type of schooling or nonschooling as long as the child is learning and getting socialization, I'm all for whatever the parent decides to do. I never frown on any of that sort of thing. I'm a very flexible person and can accept whatever type of schooling parents decide. I find the different types and styles of learning and ways to achieve it intriguing.





Forever Friends

Just had a thought... LOL!



Really, I think a lot of it is that there isn't a lot of continuity within the school system. Many times a classroom teacher can't get the special ed teacher to help them or the administrator/principal doesn't try to remedy the situation between teachers so that if helps the kids. When that happens no one suffers more that the learner... That's a part of what I have seen in the public school systems.



Sally, does that make sense? I do appreciate your thoughts. I like hearing from the parents. Keep us updated on everything. I would love to hear more about Luke's talent and how you bring it out and help him grow. I think that's great what you are doing!



Christy

Forever Friends

Christy, I think you make some interesting points.....I think you're the only teacher here? What do you think are some of the solutions for the schools? Do you think that these problems are really addressed within the school system..is this a problem of funding or quality of the particular educators? Where would you point the proverbial finger?



Kris
Time is a Dressmaker, Specializing in Alterations!

[mommax3]

I taught for five years. My mom teaches elementary school, my stepmother is an assistant superintendent, my sister is a teacher, as well as numerous other relatives.



In my opinion, currently and when I taught, the BIGGEST problem was that there was no support for the teachers from home, either directly (backing up the teacher on a particular issue of discipline) or indirectly (i.e. how the child had been trained their whole life -- did they respect authority, etc.)



Apart from that, there are any number of ways that the finger can be pointed. It is all so political and I honestly don't see it improving. The charter school program is promising, however -- is anyone else familiar with it?



Sally

I am only speaking from my limited experience with public schools. What I have found to be highly related to the quality of schools is . . . yep, you guessed it: the green stuff. Why? I don't have enough experience nor do I read enough about it to know. At my last job, we traveled to nearly all of the public elementary schools in our state with our mascot and when we would enter a "low-income" city, the schools appeared to be as rundown as most of the homes. I would venture to guess that they also have a hard time attracting "quality" teachers. This is the state of our city right now as well. All you read about in the news here is how awful the schools are, how they are performing at an all-time low, etc - and on the whole, this city is *not* wealthy. Yet, venture out about 15 minutes into the 'burbs and you find top-notch public schools where more than 90% of the graduates attend college. Here in most parts of the city, I'm sure most of these kids are happy to graduate from high school. Do I want to send my kids to one of these low performing schools? No. If that was my only option, I must admit that I would go into debt to put them at a private school. However, I consider myself very, very fortunate in that I know we will most likely never be in that situation. I was lucky and blessed enough to live in a nice area growing up where we attended the "quality" public schools. I know that they are doing a lot of work to try to erase the huge gap that exists. Hopefully, someday all of the schools will be on similar levels. I'm all for redistricting to help narrow the gap.

Well, in my experience from being a public school student the biggest problems with the public school system were teachers inadequately trained (I actually was warned by one teacher that other teachers were "threatened" by me because I "knew too much" - whatever THAT means ), too many students assigned to a single teacher, and money allocated for political rather than educational reasons (ie funneled into football helmets rather than the dying music program).



I think the biggest reason I made it through public school so well was that my mother HAD to be very active in the schools. When the school district was going to completely cut the orchestra program because of "football expenses" (re the superintendant's son was the captain of the high school football team) my mother was out there at EVERY school's open house getting signatures on petitions. She even walked up to the superintendant and asked him to sign - yeah she had cajones! She was pretty much viewed as a tank by the school officials because what she thought was best for her kids was what was going to happen - she was the opposite of an apathetic parent to say the least and the staff HATED her. But, she had enough knowledge of laws and politics to get things done. Luckily for her, she had leverage because her kids had the highest SAT scores, most of us were the only National Merit Scholars, won medals for the district in Academic Decathlon, and various other awards that made the school district look good, as well as were in high-profile positions as stars of the plays/musicals, etc. (your basic over-achievers). I kind of caught on by my senior year in high school when I was given some kind of "big woopty-doo" award by the school board. They had a special little event for the whole thing and I made it clear I wasn't going to be there. The principal called me into his office to have a personal chat with me and talk me into going so it wouldn't embarrass him. I told him plainly, "Look, I know those people control your job, but I don't want to accept any award from them. They have made awful decisions and I have no respect for their award." So, my experience has been one where pro-active parents are viewed as a menace and politics rules the game in public education. And, all that I achieved in school was NOT due to the teachers, the principals, nor the policies. I thrived because my mother ram-rodded her way through the system. I think, ultimately, my mom wishes she had homeschooled because it would've been less stressfull and less work for her!



Jennifer

As far as any "diversity" I was taught in public school: I learned that all the black kids hang together, all the white kids hang together, all the Hispanic kids hang together, all the Indian kids hang together, get my point? There was no "diversity" - it was a bunch of kids breaking off into groups and cliques based on pre-conceived ideas, bigotry, and ignorance. It was that way in 1st grade - and guess what? By the time I graduated it was the SAME way. Public school did nothing to stop this division. I didn't make friends outside of my "culture" until college - if I had decided to hang out with kids from other cultures in school I would've been ostracized and viewed as some sort of ____(insert your derogatory word here). The teachers were not interested in having the groups of kids "mix" and they never encouraged it. Consequently, I didn't have friends who were black, Muslim, Jewish, Hispanic, etc until AFTER I graduated from public school and wasn't trapped in an environment where I was subjected to peer pressure and the herd mentality.



If my kids follow my husband's route and begin college at 16 they will be able to follow one of several routes: they can do what my husband did and go to the University of Texas Academy of Math and Science which is a program specifically designed for kids who are ready for college at the age of 16 (or even as young as 14), they can stay at home and attend community college until they feel they are mature enough to handle transferring to a university, or they can take some time off - travel, do whatever - and then go on to their undergraduate studies. I don't see much wrong with any of those options.



Another note on diversity: my kids already have friends that they regularly play with who are from the following backgrounds: Indian, Polynesian (Hawaiian), Mexican, African-American, Downs Syndrome, Dominican (ie from the Dominican Republic), African (immigrants), Trinidad, Muslim and Catholic. How are my children deprived of being around diverse groups of people? If you seek out friends who share your lifestyle you'll find them in every skin color, nationality, and creed - that's what I've learned in the past few years. That is something that public schooling neglected to teach me and I had to learn on my own as an adult! Hopefully my children have alreadylearned that lesson at the tender ages of 5 and below!



Jennifer

Another thing I have to add to this discussion: Have any of you read the book, "The Teacher Who Couldn't Read" by John Corcoran? It is "spun" as an inspiring account but it reads like a horror story to me as a parent of a school-aged child: a man goes through public school unable to read simple text, he GRADUATES from public school still illiterate, gets into college, gets a teaching certificate and TEACHES (still unable to read)!!!! Not only does that say a lot about how schools allow kids to slip through the cracks, it also says a whooooole heck of a lot about the people who are allowed to teach in public schools (how the heck did this guy get a teaching certificate let alone a JOB teaching???). I just about fell over when I found this book in the library a couple of days ago. Have any of you heard of it?



Jennifer

[mommax3]

Claudia, I think you are right about the debate.....



I am deciding NOT to homeschool primarily because when we are out of the military, and have control of where we will live, I want to pick a place with good public schools and then use them! They do still exist, but it takes a LOT of research to find them. You can't just go by test scores or other externals.



I went to public schools all the way through and think I got an excellent education -- I assumed the same thing would be available to my kids. So far, I haven't found the same atmosphere waiting for my kids as the one I encountered. I am sure I am older than most of you reading this, (I am 33 and graduated from high school 16 years ago) but I think the world has changed and you can't just assume public schools are by and large okay. I don't mind if Luke plays with kids who don't believe as we do -- until that difference in beliefs causes him to ask me (as a six year old) "why would someone want you to kiss their butthole?" (His friend said this to his older sister as the boys were playing.) Childhood innocence is a rare commodity these days, but I was hoping to protect his for at least another year or two. I have heard the kids Luke plays with in the neighborhood talk about being "gay" (detrimentally, of course) and luckily, that went over Luke's head. I don't want to deal with these issues with him yet! He is not emotionally mature enough to understand the explanations. So many kids today watch whatever they want on tv -- and even if it isn't pornographic, it still isn't stuff you want to hear come out of your child's mouth. I am being hard on Luke's classmates here, but you ought to hear how some of the parents on his soccer team talk! And don't even get me started about my feelings about guns vs. people who go deer hunting (or whatever is in season) every weekend.....and would tell me in no uncertain terms where to get off if I asked them if the guns were kept unloaded and locked up.

My point, after all of this rambling and ranting, is that when it comes to my child, I AM hypervigilant but I don't think I am unreasonable. The things I see here regularly were not things I saw growing up, and we were poor and not even close to middle class. So for me, it is more about protection than about indoctrination. As Luke grows up, less and less protection will be required, but for now, I DO want him in kind of a hothouse environment. The uglier parts of the world can wait until he has a measure of maturity with which to understand them.



Sally

Sally,



I'm almost 32 and I went to public schools for grades 11 and 12 in Texas...



Kris
Time is a Dressmaker, Specializing in Alterations!