Gifted testing

[Pollyanna]

As the mother of older school-aged kids (4th and 7th grade), I can now see that it would make more sense to save your private school dollars for the later years.

This is what we do. Public for elementary and middle and a private Catholic high school. It makes all the difference in the world to have your child go to a high school where they feel loved and valued as well as one that stresses academic excellence. As opposed to the local public high school, where they can take honors and AP classes, but in terms of getting through the difficult teen years they are pretty much left to their own devises.

This is what we do. Public for elementary and middle and a private Catholic high school. It makes all the difference in the world to have your child go to a high school where they feel loved and valued as well as one that stresses academic excellence. As opposed to the local public high school, where they can take honors and AP classes, but in terms of getting through the difficult teen years they are pretty much left to their own devises.

Thank you for your BTDT experience! This is what we are thinking of doing but I'm not sure about the public middle school (pretty crowded). I figure I've got the next year to think about it. The high school I would be most interested in for DD doesn't have a junior high attached to it.

[Deebs]

I keep reading this thread and thinking "so choosing a preschool is just the beginning of this mess?" Ugh!

[Pollyanna]

Thank you for your BTDT experience! This is what we are thinking of doing but I'm not sure about the public middle school (pretty crowded). I figure I've got the next year to think about it. The high school I would be most interested in for DD doesn't have a junior high attached to it.

No problem. FWIW, dd knew only 3 kids from her middle school that went to her high school, and she didn't care for any of them. What we have found is that with most private high schools they draw kids from all over the community so when freshman year starts they do a lot of team building type activities. DD high school draws from 60 different middle schools and her little group of friends each come from different middle schools so I don't think it is necessary for a middle school to be attached (may even work against you with established cliques, etc.). One of the best activities to be in when starting high school is band. Band rocks! Every kid always has a place in band, from the captain of the football team to the nerdiest kid in school. Plus, band starts practice before school starts so they meet a lot of kids from different classes before school even starts.

[Sheherezade]

I keep reading this thread and thinking "so choosing a preschool is just the beginning of this mess?" Ugh!

Pace yourself. It's definitely a marathon - not a sprint.

Thanks, Tara. That is a good point. I, um, called the admissions director of the high school (would that be 4 years ahead of time?) to ask where most of their students come from. There are quite a few from three schools -- our jr high and two private Catholic high schools. However, they have a really high number of total schools feeding in and for the most part, everyone starts out as a "new" kid. It's the junior high part that is giving me the occasional parenting angst.

[Pollyanna]

Thanks, Tara. That is a good point. I, um, called the admissions director of the high school (would that be 4 years ahead of time?) to ask where most of their students come from. There are quite a few from three schools -- our jr high and two private Catholic high schools. However, they have a really high number of total schools feeding in and for the most part, everyone starts out as a "new" kid. It's the junior high part that is giving me the occasional parenting angst.

From what I can tell about middle school is that it just stinks. We are in one of the best rated middle schools in the city and it still stinks. The middle school years are tough for kids, dare I say probably harder than high school. I've talked to lots of parents in different middle schools (public, private, religious) and they all have the same issues. Mainly the social issues are what make middle school so tough. Kids can be extra mean at that age and when they have lots of social issues their school work can suffer. Of course some schools are better academically than others but you'll still get all the other angst. High school is a complete breath of fresh air.

[DCJenn]

The junior high was what had me worried about sending dude to the elementary school- luckily since we left they were granted academy status- and therefore go to 8th grade.

If he had to go to the crazy bad junior high, we'd be paying for private schools.

Jenn

I like the idea of a smaller k-8 school. At one point, our district had planned to change our local elementary to this model and now that has changed again back to the over-crowded middle school. Bleh.

[GrayMatterWife]

Abigail, can you elaborate on this? I know my DS is smart, but what differentiates smart from TAG? Since he is only in kindergarden it isn't really an issue yet, but I know that by November(ish) he had already met most of the academic goals for the end of the year, particularly in math.

Thoughts from a former teacher, FWIW:

First, I should say that, in my comments, I probably was kind of sloppy about using "gifted" and "advanced" as interchangeable. Giftedness--genuine giftedness, not just being "bright"--is a learning situation which really must be taken seriously and addressed, because gifted children often have associated behavioral issues. What constitutes "gifted" differs from state to state, district to district, and even school to school. Unlike special education (education designed to address the needs of students identified with a learning disability, emotional disability, or physical handicap that needs accomodation in the classroom context), gifted education does not have the same more-universalized standards for identification. Most of this has to do with funding: the federal government, through the Dept of Education, subsidizes (though not fully) special education programs. There is no such funding for gifted education. There is a lot less predictability in terms of identifying gifted students, addressing their needs, etc.--there's just a lot less money for it. A lot of schools cut (or cut back) gifted education as a method of cost control, because it gets paid for from local or state dollars.

In addition to the money issue, another problem with addressing the needs of gifted student is that there is pretty wide-spread ignorance of what constitutes "gifted." "Gifted" is different than, for example, "advanced for his age" and those type of euphemisms. A lot of people in education don't realize their is a difference, and just lump all "smart" kids together because they don't have teh time or money to distinguish. I don't know if you son is "gifted," and honestly you probably don't either, unless he's been tested. If you believe he might be, I'd start googling--find a RELIABLE website that addresses giftedness in young children and review the classic indicators. If he has enough, consider getting him tested at a reputable facility.

If he is gifted, you need to get that addressed in his education. Gifted children NEED STIMULATION and APPROPRIATE NUTURING. It is critically important to their social development (we're not even talking about the academic stuff yet). If you child is genuinely gifted but being educated in a classroom setting that cannot address his (1) emotional, (2) social, and (3) intellectual needs, you run the risk of boredom, acting out, withdrawal, and other behavior issues (that could even "block" people being able to recognize his giftedness--it's a self-perpetuating problem). Gifted children are often very sensitive as well and can have a hard time fitting-in, in a non-gifted classroom setting. If your child is gifted, you need to get him into an appropriate setting, whether that is at a private or a public school. And you need to get him a curriculum that is effective in addressing his giftedness (gifted children are not just robots who are good at chess and like math class--often, they thrive in art class, music, and should be pushed beyond their "safety" zones).

Contrast that with "bright" or "above average." These kids also need appropriate stimulation and nuturing, but they often don't carry the baggage (frankly) that gifted children do. They can thrive well in AP class-settings, pull-out "TAG" programs, etc. My beef--what you asked me to comment on--is with parents who insist that their not-so-advanced children be placed in accelerated or "advanced" classes. Usually so that their kids would be in the "right crowd." I fully sympathize with wanting your kid to hang out with strong students and "good kids." I wouldn't want my kids hanging out with gang bangers, potheads, tweakers, etc., either! But, what I've seen happen is kids who cannot keep up in advanced classes turn into: (1) class clowns, (2) behavior problems, or (3) wallflowers, because they know they are in over their heads. No one likes to feel like he is the dead weight. So they defensively act out.

A lot of parents say, "Well, I'd rather have him getting a 'C' in advanced classes, than an 'A' in regular classes--it challenges him." All students should be challenged. But there are other ways to get them challenged (ways that won't make it obvious to them and everyone else that they shouldn't be there). Ways that would make them realize real SUCCESS, rather than simply make the parents feel more secure. For example, so--your kid isn't good at math. Big deal--it's not the end of the world. It's what you do about it that matters. Sticking him in Calculus when he didn't master Trig won't be the solution. Keep him in the appropriate level class and get a tutor. Get involved. Help him with his homework, and get him up to a higher achievement level. If advanced classes are then appropriate, move it. If, after that work, he still can't really cut it, than why would you torture him with math he's not ready for? It might make you feel better, but it won't make him feel better. He's good at something--art, music, debate, sports--find a way for him to get really involved with that. Whatever the specialization is, the kids involved will be focused and dedicated to it, and provide an atmosphere of discipline and involvement that you're looking for. And what's really amazing is, once the child has realized success in one field--whatever that is--the resulting earned, genuine self-confidence often spills over into over areas of his life. Like Trig.

In the meantime, HouseOfWool, I'd find out if your kid is gifted. If he is, then at least you know early and can begin addressing what his needs. If he is bright--and it sounds like he is--and you feel like the classes aren't really challenging him, investigate advanced classes. If there aren't advanced classes, get him involved in after-school things that will complement his interests or work with the teacher about how you might be able to complement his classroom work at home. But, in my opinion, if you start seeing trouble signs: acting out, giving up, withdrawing from friends--get involved. The advanced classes or whatever may not be the right fit or be socially rewarding. The most important thing at his age is that he LOVE school. The last thing you'd want is for him to feel (1) bored (which will lead to dislike or possible behavior issues) or, on the other end, (2) over his head. It's a balance.

My only take away message from my early post was: sticking an average kid in advanced classes for (essentially) socialization purposes does not, in my opinion, necessarily bear the fruit that the parents hope for. It might work for some kids but I've seen a lot of kids struggle in an inappropriate learning environment, and walk away feeling stupid or like they have to be the class goofball just to get noticed.

You are a great mom and clearly thinking ahead. Whatever you do, you're going to be involved and carefully watching. If there are problems, you can address them.

OK, what a ridiculously long post. Sorry. I would have just "PM"-ed you, but I think that this is a pretty hotly debated topic, and I thought it was important to make this a public post so that folks with contrary thoughts could counter. My opinion is only my opinion. Other people--especially people with WAY more teaching experience than me, or people who have gifted kids or kids in advanced programs--might have different thoughts or a more educated, informed perspective.

[houseelf]

This thread has been wonderful to read. I just always thought we'd have more of a long term plan for our kids education by now. Our oldest is finishing up third grade and after way too much research and angst, we elected for an additional three year montessori cycle 4-6. What can I say? It seems to be working for this child, so maybe we shouldn't tinker with it.

I honestly have no idea what we will do after that. There is an inner city public magnet school option that only takes the top 20% of the district and receives national honors, there are several private schools, and then there is the hightailing to the suburbs option. That is IF we stay in this city long term. If not, the entire stress cycle begins again.

If the other committed parents on this board go through the same issues, I feel like at least I'm in good company. This is SO different than what DH and my parents did: buy a little house in the suburbs and stay there the entire thirteen years.

Kelly

[Deebs]

Abigail,
I really appreciate your insight and information. I'm a little nervous that we will put pressure on our kids (really DH more than perfect little me ), but your detail really helped put some things in perspective. I think when a couple was identified from an early age as both gifted, most people expect that their children will be gifted. DH is so worried that DD isn't reading at 3 1/2 years (he read when he was two), but she literally will tell a story from beginning to end, just doesn't really get the letters to word concept. By contrast, DS is 17 months, has a few dozen three syllable words, is frustrated that the world treats him like a baby, and sits and examines books for several minutes at a time. I actually think they're both fairly average for the children of a well-educated couple who have a ton of books in our house and expose them to a lot of experiences. They really just have different areas of strengths as well as different interests.

Growing up, my school determined giftedness in elementary school by a standard IQ score. In Junior High, there was a different test given. I became "ungifted" in Jr. High, but then re-gifted in High School. DH's school was 5 miles from mine and giftedness was basically determined by whichever parent complained the most to get their kids into the program. DH was always frustrated by the kids in the gifted program who weren't really weird (his term, not mine), but whose parents pushed a lot. I guess not much has changed in 20-30 years, huh?

[oceanchild]

From what I can tell about middle school is that it just stinks. We are in one of the best rated middle schools in the city and it still stinks. The middle school years are tough for kids, dare I say probably harder than high school. I've talked to lots of parents in different middle schools (public, private, religious) and they all have the same issues. Mainly the social issues are what make middle school so tough. Kids can be extra mean at that age and when they have lots of social issues their school work can suffer. Of course some schools are better academically than others but you'll still get all the other angst. High school is a complete breath of fresh air.

I was going to say this too. I just spent most of yesterday with my 8th grade confirmation students on retreat, and it's just a lousy age. I had some genuinely sweet kids in my class, but they're just completely overpowered by the bratty ones. And the bratty ones seem to come from all different types of schools (public, private, religious, k-8, 6-8, 7-12...).

Middle school's just hard.

[Sheherezade]

We are in our first year of middle school with our oldest. He's been fine socially (knock on wood!) but this last semester, his brain melted. At least, we think that's what happened. He's always been a straight A kid with little effort but one week before the close of the grading period we logged on to the school grade book and he had two Bs and a C+. Turns out he had "lost" some papers on the bottom of his backpack and forgotten to turn in a few other things. He ended up catching up with almost everything, as well as asking for extra credit assignments in the classes. In the end, he crawled back up to an A in all three classes....and got a B in one we hadn't harassed him about.

Anyhoo. It was a surprise. He seems to have lost the ability to keep track of his work or the work has just piled up. Also, he has a few classes for the first time that are graded on a paper and a test. Just a paper and a test. He's learned that you have to try hard on every little thing....in case that paper turns out to be fifty percent of your grade.

My point: Middle school ramps up the work and responsibility just when their brains and bodies start changing. It's the age of shifting ground. As parents, I think you have to turn your radar back up after a few years of relatively easy parenting. That's a tricky thing to do.

[GrayMatterWife]

I think when a couple was identified from an early age as both gifted, most people expect that their children will be gifted.

Totally... For some of the parents of the students I had, it was about, "What did I do wrong, creating this child that is...less than my own potential?" Um...it's not about you! A child not reading early--despite all your best efforts--is not a reflection on your failure as a parent or a biological conveyor. It means that the child is different than you were at his age. Hey, guess what? This ain't gonna be the only way that the kid turns out not to be your clone. As long as you know that there is no visual, auditory, neurological, or learning disability (and not being you is not a learning disability...) at play, then relax.

DH is so worried that DD isn't reading at 3 1/2 years (he read when he was two), but she literally will tell a story from beginning to end, just doesn't really get the letters to word concept.

I'd tell him to spend less time worrying about reading and more time listening to the wonderful stories. When she grows up to be the next White House Press Secretary or a world-famous children's author, he'll feel like an idiot for not enjoying the seeds of her story-telling. These moments come around only once.

My husband didn't learn to read until first grade. He spent his entire kindergarten year "blowing up" the girls' dollhouse and otherwise causing chaos. No interest in reading. He's a neurosurgeon now. But his mom read to him all the time. Personally, I agree with this approach. Being read-to is what's important. Your love of reading and your interest in learning new things through reading is the seed that will grow into a love of reading once the kid's ready.

I became "ungifted" in Jr. High, but then re-gifted in High School.

That's funny! My sister--who is absolutely brilliant, very high IQ--had a similar experience. She was declined TAG education in first grade (I qualified and she didn't--OK, right there--that should have said something about the testing was big-time amiss). Not only that, but she then was identified for speech therapy because of delayed speech. They thought she might have a learning disability (of course, you can be gifted AND have a learning disability, but the point is: no one knew which was way up). Turns out she had horrible hearing. Some sort of problem with her ear canal. It was discovered a couple of years later. In the meantime, her speech lagged and she couldn't hear what anyone was asking her! The second she had the canal problem correct, her speech dramatically improved and she tested off-the-charts for TAG. Then she skipped a year in school.

Before you get your kid tested for any kind of a modified curriculum (gifted, advanced, special ed, or anthing else), I'd recommend that you take them first to the audiologist and the eye doctor, to be sure that they can hear and see what you're asking about, especially if there are other indicators (squinting, ignoring questions, delayed speech) that might such a pathology.