The Math Wars

[poky]

I guess it just goes to show how much things have changed even in the past 10 years. Algebra 1 in 8th grade was the fast track then. I guess my issue with it is it wasn't portrayed as a "get ahead" thing, it was a "well if you aren't you just probably aren't the brightest" thing. Doing Pre Ap and AP was the "get ahead" track.

This was my experience, as well; in a class of 400 with more than a dozen national merit semi-finalists, only ONE kid took calc junior year (and she had go to the nearby community college to take calc II our senior year). Algebra in 8th grade/calc in 12th was the fast track there and then. *shrug*

[houseelf]

done. I just downgraded him to prealgebra for 7th grade.

You all just saved me some tears and frustration. He really just didn't get it. He was trying (and not the protypical 12.5 year old boy half-a**ed stuff he sometimes tries to slide by with around here). I'm glad I caught this early.

[SoonerTexan]

I will say one nice thing about my high school experience was we were on a college block schedule--4 classes the first semester and 4 classes the next. So if you didn't feel ready for Algebra 1 in 8th grade, you could still all the way to Calculus BC if you were willing to double up on math a few years. Not fun, but an option nonetheless.

Kelly, good for you. If you have one awful experience with math, it is hard to ever get past that.

[Sheherezade]

We've got Algebra in 7th grade as a standard track here, too. Our schedule sound pretty similar to yours Heidi. Honestly, it's not for everybody. I wish they would emphasize that kids are different. I had a similar Mommy moment with my 11th grader who was taking 5 AP classes this year (Computer Programming, Government, English Comp, Calculus AB and Physics) as well as the pre AP Spanish. He hates English and decided he wanted to lighten the load by getting rid of AP English Comp. Well, I can't tell you how much pressure there is for kids to "do all you can do" regardless of what's right for them. He probably could have done it. I decided it was time to let him make some of his own decisions and honestly - could I really argue he was "coasting" with the remaining classes he has? He is now "only" taking Honors English. *sigh* Still, I feel like I've been judged as non tiger mom material by some. LOL I suppose you are meant to keep their poor little feet to the fire with all the offerings. Meh. That needs to change. Kids need to feel OK with pursuing high level material in some areas and maybe lightening up in others if that's what they need. One high level track for all subjects is not realistic. If you drop down in one thought, it's kind of a social thing.

[houseelf]

Well, I can't tell you how much pressure there is for kids to "do all you can do" regardless of what's right for them. He probably could have done it. I decided it was time to let him make some of his own decisions and honestly - could I really argue he was "coasting" with the remaining classes he has? He is now "only" taking Honors English. *sigh* Still, I feel like I've been judged as non tiger mom material by some. LOL I suppose you are meant to keep their poor little feet to the fire with all the offerings.

Hold me. To other readers--Sorry for this thread's turn off topic, but this speaks to me. I promise to return you to your normal discussion soon.

Everyone is taking much harder classes than DH and I did at this age plus playing select sports year round plus learning some sort of instrument. Listen, DH is a college athlete turned surgeon and I am a summa cum laude college graduate who runs marathons for kicks. Trust me, we know what hard core feels like around here. Nonetheless, neither of us were saddled with these types of expectations for a 12 year old. Seriously, even DS's confirmation class has two hour dinner commitments, mission hours to complete, mandatory attendance for ten weeks. I hate to be blasphemous, but really, this isn't the time to dog pile these kids with more expectations. We are definitely experiencing some growing pains around here, and not just the child.

Please return to your conversation regarding wacky math practices, which I totally agree with and believe is an important topic. Thanks!

[peggyfromwastate]

Ryan did Algebra 1 in 7th grade, and I don't think it's idiotic. DH and I both did it too. Ryan is a freshman this year and has two AP classes, Algebra 2 and several other honors courses. If that puts him on a rabbit's pace, then he is. But, he wants to, and does well. So, go ahead and throw stones.
.

Not at all Heidi--- he wants to take those courses. Makes perfect sense. My dd16 was basically forced to take the fast track and she was never great at math. It was insane. Dh and I asked for her to not be fast tracked but we were stonewalled. I'm not opposed to that Track if you have a kid who really needs the challenge and gravitates towards a tech:engineering:science path.

[peggyfromwastate]

I should mention that I supplement mostly with my ds8 who has learning issues. I'm not sure what his issues are yet-- we've been focused on the whole diabetes thing with ds11 and do ds8 has really been ignored. But were he more independent there would be less need to supplement. He's already below grade level all the time, put in the reading group with the ESL kids... He can do the work, just doesn't know how to and needs specific instruction.

So... Math curriculum??

[Chrisada]

I should add that I taught, not supplemented my oldest before he started Kindergarten because I'm crazy (no really a former teacher )I have taught my 5 year old ALOT before he started K this year. I'm not really into the pre-school thing . He's my oldest, so I have no idea if I'll need to supplement during the school years. Maybe we'll be lucky like Pollyanna, and will not need to. But if I do feel a need to supplement, then I will with no problem.

[Pollyanna]

Heidi, I'm sorry if I gave the impression that kids taking advanced classes was wrong. My issue is the HUGE push for all kids to take those course loads and if you don't you're considered not as "smart" as the other kids. Another issue is with all the advanced, AP, and honors courses weighted in high school the average Joe has no chance of even being in the top 25% of his class. There is huge pressure to push kids beyond what they are ready for. If kids are ready and truly want that load then they should go for it but truly those kids are in the minority. Lots of kids also load up on APs thinking they will be ahead when they get to college. Until they get to college and discover their credits are not accepted or they didn't score well enough on the AP exam to earn credit. Dd got all 4s and 5s on her AP exams but she is still taking general bio and general chem even though she technicallly tested out of the courses (as are most of the kids in the class). You just miss so much by testing out of certain college courses. Not that there aren't benefits to AP classes, there are, it's just that from where I sit now I don't think they are the end all be all I thought they were 4 years ago.

My other issue with this is in our experience part of the reason you push to get your kids in the higher track is the better teachers teach the AP and honors classes. The kids know this too, I'd be curious to know if this is the same experience for people in other areas of the country. I guess it kind of has become, in both impression and practice, that if you're not on the fast track you're not worth the effort. And this is coming from a mom who has had kids on the fast track . I'm just not sure it's the best way to educate all children.

This is indeed a multifaceted and fascinating topic.

[diggitydot]

I think everything boils down to the kid. What is too soon for some might be too late for others.

All three of our stooges have had vastly different educational experiences. DD1 was ridiculously advanced in languages, while having a typical experience in maths and sciences. DD2 is crazy advanced in math and sciences, but doesn't like languages as much. DS is a pretty consistent "C+" or "B-" student who has an easier time with math, which is to be expected with his language disorder. We're not really "supplementing" parents, but instead use regular life as a way to teach the kids stuff. (ie, cooking for learning fractions, chemical reactions, etc.)

Magnet programs are interesting, but definitely NOT for every style of student. The kids' last district really like magnets and had a ton. DD1 attended an honors music magnet high school where she thrived. It was very art-centered and populated with kids who value and respect not only the arts, but artists and the hard work involved to develop talent. DD2 attended an "advanced honors" magnet middle school (had to apply and test for admission) where group work, projects, personal responsibility, and fast absorption of quickly flowing higher level material was the norm. She also thrived at her school because it was a good fit for her learning style. DS has only ever attended traditional schools.

While our kids had good experiences in magnet programs, there are lots of kids who did not. They are NOT for every kid or learning style.

[Sheherezade]

What a thread! I'm enjoying this discussion since my children's education is one of those topics that I deal with daily. Very relevant.

As for supplementation, I can tell all the younger moms that I used to do a lot more of this when the kids were in grades K-6. Somewhere within the 7-8 grades, the switch flips here and suddenly the schools are throwing too much at the kids, not too little. For us, that's been a good thing because for the most part, supplementation hasn't been a concern after grade 8. Still, we are now dealing with this issue of learning to say "no". Honestly, not my strength. Probably not anyone's strength on this board!

Here, AP classes are really just the most advanced class. I don't think a lot of the kids end up getting credit for them in college - if they go to selective colleges. Most kids do very well. Our passing rate (higher than 3) is nearly 90% in all classes offered. Those kids that get the 4's and the 5's end up going to the schools that make you take the class over. If they do end up at our state school, the state university is bound by law to take the AP credit. Since many of the kids here graduate with 10-12 AP classes taken, some kids start as sophomores and can save their parents a whole year of tuition. Whether that's the right road educationally I can't say - but I can see the value to the families. Mostly, our courses are leveled like this: college prep (lowest level), Honors (middle level) and AP (highest level). The kids sort out in to those categories. It kind of strikes me as vanity sizing but most kids here do go to college so college prep makes sense. And yes, the best teachers teach the AP classes. That's what broke my heart about my son skipping AP English this year. Best teacher in the school and you only get her in AP level English classes or one elective course (I hope he takes it). It's worth mentioning that the AP classes (English) only have about 10 kids in them so they self select to very small class sizes. I'm not sure that using your best teacher for so few students is a good allocation of resources.

I think AP courses are pushed more because they raise the prestige level of the school. US News and World Report high school rankings depend on them; I know here the parents look at that number. We slipped a few notches in the top 100 high schools and it was talked about by both school board and parents. AP scores are important to keep that number where it is. Also on the issue of AP, here we've been seeing kids channeled OUT of AP if the school thinks they won't score well. That's just another part of the numbers game the schools are playing these days with testing as the focus. *sigh*

I should probably split this thread in to two. We've gone so far off topic (at least in part my fault). Sorry!!!!

[HouseofWool]

What a thread! I'm enjoying this discussion since my children's education is one of those topics that I deal with daily. Very relevant.

As for supplementation, I can tell all the younger moms that I used to do a lot more of this when the kids were in grades K-6. Somewhere within the 7-8 grades, the switch flips here and suddenly the schools are throwing too much at the kids, not too little. For us, that's been a good thing because for the most part, supplementation hasn't been a concern after grade 8. Still, we are now dealing with this issue of learning to say "no". Honestly, not my strength. Probably not anyone's strength on this board!

Here, AP classes are really just the most advanced class. I don't think a lot of the kids end up getting credit for them in college - if they go to selective colleges. Most kids do very well. Our passing rate (higher than 3) is nearly 90% in all classes offered. Those kids that get the 4's and the 5's end up going to the schools that make you take the class over. If they do end up at our state school, the state university is bound by law to take the AP credit. Since many of the kids here graduate with 10-12 AP classes taken, some kids start as sophomores and can save their parents a whole year of tuition. Whether that's the right road educationally I can't say - but I can see the value to the families. Mostly, our courses are leveled like this: college prep (lowest level), Honors (middle level) and AP (highest level). The kids sort out in to those categories. It kind of strikes me as vanity sizing but most kids here do go to college so college prep makes sense. And yes, the best teachers teach the AP classes. That's what broke my heart about my son skipping AP English this year. Best teacher in the school and you only get her in AP level English classes or one elective course (I hope he takes it). It's worth mentioning that the AP classes (English) only have about 10 kids in them so they self select to very small class sizes. I'm not sure that using your best teacher for so few students is a good allocation of resources.

I think AP courses are pushed more because they raise the prestige level of the school. US News and World Report high school rankings depend on them; I know here the parents look at that number. We slipped a few notches in the top 100 high schools and it was talked about by both school board and parents. AP scores are important to keep that number where it is. Also on the issue of AP, here we've been seeing kids channeled OUT of AP if the school thinks they won't score well. That's just another part of the numbers game the schools are playing these days with testing as the focus. *sigh*

I should probably split this thread in to two. We've gone so far off topic (at least in part my fault). Sorry!!!!

Holy shit! US News and World Reports ranks HIGH SCHOOLS??? That is just wrong. How many people have the ability to pick up and move for a better high school...

[SoonerTexan]

And not only do they rank high schools, one of the criteria is AP tests taken. Not passed, taken. So some enterprising schools have figured that out and forced all students to take them. Highland Park ISD in Dallas does this, though admittedly they have excellent academics anyway.

[Chrisada]

Heidi, I'm sorry if I gave the impression that kids taking advanced classes was wrong. My issue is the HUGE push for all kids to take those course loads and if you don't you're considered not as "smart" as the other kids. Another issue is with all the advanced, AP, and honors courses weighted in high school the average Joe has no chance of even being in the top 25% of his class. There is huge pressure to push kids beyond what they are ready for. If kids are ready and truly want that load then they should go for it but truly those kids are in the minority. Lots of kids also load up on APs thinking they will be ahead when they get to college. Until they get to college and discover their credits are not accepted or they didn't score well enough on the AP exam to earn credit. Dd got all 4s and 5s on her AP exams but she is still taking general bio and general chem even though she technicallly tested out of the courses (as are most of the kids in the class). You just miss so much by testing out of certain college courses. Not that there aren't benefits to AP classes, there are, it's just that from where I sit now I don't think they are the end all be all I thought they were 4 years ago.

My other issue with this is in our experience part of the reason you push to get your kids in the higher track is the better teachers teach the AP and honors classes. The kids know this too, I'd be curious to know if this is the same experience for people in other areas of the country. I guess it kind of has become, in both impression and practice, that if you're not on the fast track you're not worth the effort. And this is coming from a mom who has had kids on the fast track . I'm just not sure it's the best way to educate all children.

This is indeed a multifaceted and fascinating topic.

Pollyanna, I went to Hume-Fogg in Nashville. It's always ranked within 30 something in the country. I think is was 32 or something this year. The pressure there is unbelievable! I really never knew I was smart until I went to college, because everyone was so advanced there. You test in, and only honors and AP classes are taken, with some students taking classes at Vanderbilt.

[Pollyanna]

Tara I went to Hume-Fogg in Nashville. It's always ranked within 30 something in the country. I think is was 32 or something this year. The pressure there is unbelievable! I really never knew I was smart until I went to college, because everyone was so advanced there. You test in, and only honors and AP classes are taken, with some students taking classes at Vanderbilt.

Holy moly, I have heard its an amazing school but I imagine a fair number of kids are burnt out by the time they hit college. Do they have extracurriculars or is it mainly academic?