Parents Religion

Not a fan of organized religion at all. I was raised by a mother who referred to herself as a "recovering Catholic" and had "emergently baptized" all of the Jewish kids she babysat as a teenager b/c she was afraid for their souls.

As I was growing up she would go on church "binges" where we had to go every Sunday for awhile, but it wasn't always the same church. She'd take me to a methodist or lutheran church (which are the more mild / laid back ones in northern ohio) until the minister said something that ticked her off, and we'd find another church.

I don't like the idea of a religion dictating what I should believe, wear, act, vote, etc. I believe people should treat others the way they'd like to be treated. Kindness breeds kindness.

[Phoebe]

My dad was non-religious, bordering on agnostic or atheist I suppose. (I don't really have a relationship with him). My mom was brought up in a non-denominational church where she was married and eventually DH and I were married. I believe my mom was more spiritual than religious. My mom took us to church growing up for exposure to religion in a Presbyterian and a Methodist church. We stopped going once I entered high school. We haven't attended church regularly until last year, but had our kids baptized. I value a more personal relationship with God than needing to attend religious services, but I do enjoy a sense of community from our church without feeling obligated to donate the expected financial contribution. I hope to expose my children to the teachings in the bible and let them decide what is right for them in the future.

DH's parents attend Christian services weekly. DH had perfect attendance at his Sunday School. DH's mom was raised Catholic, but converted to Presbyterian/Methodist. DH's other brother's both married Catholic women and converted. We are the odd balls in DH's family.

[Vishenka69]

I'm pretty anti-religous too, although may be not the extend of Heidi. My dad is an atheist and my mom is somewhat spiritual, so I was raised with a notion there's no god or anything up there, just science and evolution. They are somewhat conservative but only to a certain degree. They'd flip if I got a piercing (other than ear) or a tatoo but were cool with DH and me to be living together and let me drink in high school.

DH on the other hand is somewhat religious. He believes in some Jewish traditions/rules but not others. He went to an Orthodox Yeshiva for junion high and high school and that really influenced him. He still keeps in touch with a rabbi from the school, but the man annoys me to no end. When we went to see him before the wedding because DH wanted him to officiate, he said that he needs proof that I'm really Jewish. That unless I can show that I am and we hold the wedding at a kosher facility, he can't help us. Needless to say we got someone else.

We know several people who didn't get what they wanted in life and had to really change the course of it because their rabbis said it was the right thing to do. As you can tell, at this point I'm not a huge fan of rabbis. DH really wants to join a congregation once we have kids but I'm still not sure I'll be able to find one that I'll feel comfortable in.

I believe my mom was more spiritual than religious.

exactly. I couldn't find the words - but that is how I was raised AND how I feel now.

[Bluejay]

Utah Mormons are very judgemental.

I am a Mormon, and went to university at BYU, which is the Mormon university in Provo, Utah. It felt like you were judged if your hair was not blond, if you were overweight, if you were still single after about age 23, if you didn't have the proper number of children etc. I say that to illustrate that there is a HUGE amount of social pressure in Utah. Heidi talked about the pressure against non-Mormons, but Mormons get it too.

I think that one of the dynamics behind that is that people look at you externally to see if you are 'righteous'. As if somehow 'better' people are more 'blessed', so they are the ones who get to be the attractive popular blond co-eds.

That logic makes no sense whatsoever. For example, I have great friends who are overweight, and there extra pounds have nothing whatsoever to do with our friendship.

Anyhow, I will never live in Utah again. And just to clarify, I am still willingly and happily LDS. But this post brought up some rotten memories, so I thought I would chime in. Even though I met some of the 'proper criteria', I found Utah a harsh place to live.

[Sheherezade]

Even though I met some of the 'proper criteria', I found Utah a harsh place to live.

I think this is sad. We visited Zion and Bryce this year and I thought the Canyonlands were some of the most beautiful and amazing country in this land. I'd even started fantasizing about my life there. Somehow, I don't see my live and let live mentality fitting in. How does this religious culture handle the people that live in Utah for the land - the hiking, the mountain biking and what have you? Are they just "tourists"? Or is it a subculture?

A subculture (IMO).

[Bluejay]

How does this religious culture handle the people that live in Utah for the land - the hiking, the mountain biking and what have you? Are they just "tourists"? Or is it a subculture?

I don't really know. I've never been to those areas. I just checked a map and they are in the south of Utah, whereas I was up at the top near SLC.

Tara, friends of ours were going to do fellowships there (they didn't, long story) and felt there would be adequate diversity for them (for them, their preferences, not being LDS, etc). Friends of theirs did residency at the university and liked living in SLC. I think the LDS to non-LDS is about 50/50? I'm not sure. Also, our friends didn't have children or their daughter was still very young at that point. I don't know if they would have felt differently when she got older. They would have fit with the outdoor/active lifestyle niche that Angie mentioned. I consider that a subculture, especially in the Moab area but that is just my opinion. Most of the people I know who have lived in Utah would fit that description but that's because I met them through outdoor type activities not that most Utah residents fit that mold. They loved living there.

[Sheherezade]

It is interesting. Maybe it depends on your social circle. I have a very good friend IRL that grew up Mormon in FL. She went to BYU for college and stayed in SLC for a year or two afterwards. She was totally crushed by the experience. She described the kind of atmosphere that Bluejay describes to me. It shook her faith - but after moving away she went back to her "roots" and is a 40 year old Mormon in FL again. So......my point is I know her well and trust her opinions to be completely rational. There must be something amiss in the SLC Mormon culture. I wonder what Rapunzel's take on all this is - having been a devout Mormon in other cities. I wonder if it is harder to be devout in the nest of the religion due to all the politics? Or the fact that you have to be "more" Mormon or "more" Catholic if you live in SLC or Vatican city?

Completely off topic....but interesting.

(If we weren't going to discuss this with our Mormon members, I'd think it would be a great coffee house talk! So....Jennifer will just have to break out the hot cocoa. )

[Bluejay]

This is an interesting thread in that the Mormons are more critical of Utah than the non-Mormons, with the exception of Heidi. Although Heidi and I are the only ones so far who have lived there, and we are both critical.

As for subcultures, BYU is known for being a judgemental subculture. And since that is the only place I have lived in Utah, my perceptions are from there.

Although the subculture idea is an interesting one; I suppose that if you know you are seeking out the outdoor activity subculture, or the Catholic subculture, that you could find it and feel comfortable in it. But as a Mormon I'm doomed, so I'll take my Mormon self elsewhere.

[Vishenka69]

I wonder if it is harder to be devout in the nest of the religion due to all the politics? Or the fact that you have to be "more" Mormon or "more" Catholic if you live in SLC or Vatican city?

Interestingly enough most Israelis are completely secular.

[Sheherezade]

True....but I do know some U.S. Jewish friends that hold up their time spent in Israel as badge of honor. Some went to Israel to work on on a kibbutz after college - and others now make annual trips. Is that a part of the religion - or a cultural interest? I'm not sure. There must be some religious zeal in Israel - I can't believe it is totally secular! Although, I will admit that the Israeli Jews I've known have been the least religious of my Jewish friends.

[Bluejay]

[quote="Sheherezade"] So......my point is I know her well and trust her opinions to be completely rational. There must be something amiss in the SLC Mormon culture. I wonder what Rapunzel's take on all this is - having been a devout Mormon in other cities. I wonder if it is harder to be devout in the nest of the religion due to all the politics? Or the fact that you have to be "more" Mormon or "more" Catholic if you live in SLC or Vatican city?[quote]

I can contrast being a Mormon in Utah against being a Mormon in other cities.

One huge problem in Utah is lack of privacy. Because so many people are Mormon, and because Mormons are divided geographically into congregations, your neighborhood and your church congregation are the same people. Mormons don't get to choose where to attend church by which congregation they feel most comfortable in, but rather our wards are designated with geographic boundaries. So if you live between 6th and 10th streets, you automatically go to Sunnydale Ward.

So, here is what happens: (Please excuse the Mormon terminology, but I think you'll get the idea.) your next-door neighbor whose house is close enough to see in your windows also teaches Sunday School to your son; you home teach the neighbor accross the back fence with the loud annoying dog who you just might call the police on if he gets out one more time, your Enrichment Night book club is also the walking group that you don't belong to but who see you weeding the garden in your grubbies some mornings, the nurse at your doctor's office doesn't live in your neighborhood (whew!) but what if someone walks in who does... yada yada.

So everybody knows everybody's business, and there is a strong neighborhood undercurrent/church undercurrent overlap. There is another Mormon custom that plays into this.

Just as we do not choose which congregation to attend, we are also assigned a job to do at church. So, if your neighbor knows that you spank your son when he has a tantrum, she still is his Sunday School teacher whether or not she agrees with spanking a child. She has been asked to be a Sunday School teacher as her assignment. Everyone has an assignment. So the 'loyalties' of the people who you work with on your church assignements, or who may supervise you at church, can be superimposed on your day to day relationships with your neighbors.

So all this leads to lots of friction. And judgementalness.

In contrast, living outside of Utah is different in that there is space. One congregation may cover the geography of several cities. So your closest Mormon neighbor may be a 5 minute drive away. This means that the social and 'working-together in assignment' relationships are much more normal. You can only make friends with the type of people at church that you normally would, and that doesn't make any waves with your neighbors. People at church don't automatically know everything about you - only your close friends there do. And so also you end up with friends who are your neighbors, or part of your play group, or are from work... where your friendship has nothing to do with religion one way or the other.

Ok, I'll quit before I write a book. Does what I am saying make sense?

[Sheherezade]

That makes a lot of sense. I didn't realize how that worked. I don't think I'd like to be assigned to a church. Heck....I don't even like to stick to the church *I* choose for myself.

So, there would be a difference in the practice of the faith in an area without so many members. Space. Close knit neighborhoods can be great, but they can also suck. Lots of gossip. I can see how that would play in to the church dynamics. I have enough trouble fitting in to an established neighborhood; I can't imagine how hard it would be if it were also my church group. I bet it is even harder on the newcomer.

Thanks for the info. I didn't ask you directly because I always think of Rapunzel as our resident Mormon info source. Now there is competition.