b.c vs a.c

[PrincessFiona]

OK..the whole before children/after children issue...since I missed out yesterday, I thought I'd drag it into the debate forums! :>

My perspectives on children and parenting changed drastically after becoming a mom. I'd even go as far as to say that with each child we have I am less and less an expert on raising children. No parenting theory really prepares you really for the real challengs of dealing with a birthing plan gone awry, a baby that struggles to nurse, milk supplies that don't come in, colicky babies, children with learning disability, sass, discipline issues, getting kids to bed before you conk out yourself.

Does this apply to other areas as well? Absolutely. I heard a lot of frustration in the other thread about people jumping in and saying "you'll understand when" and this is not exclusive to parenting. I've heard anxious pre-meds over at MomMD get upset with docs or residents who say things that they don't want to hear about combining medicine and residency...and then when those pre-meds get accepted and get started many of them come back and say "oh, GAWD...I had no idea...".

I have had friends (aka Kelly :,rgreen: ) warn me of the difficulty of working and balancing children and of course I thought that perhaps that applied to her...but not me...until I started working. I stopped working for the reasons she had outlined to me before I had even gotten going.

We all think things will be different for us and tend to sideline what otehrs are saying...particulary if we strongly disagree.

DH and I thought we had it all locked up about how to handle residency and that *we* wouldn't struggle with some of the issues we saw others struggling with.

<------- Oh, the pain!

Our kids weren't going to be sassy or have school issues or disciplinary issues because...well...we were going to do it all *right*

<------- laughing so hard I'm crying!


It's always humbling getting into something you haven't started whether it be kids, a job or whatever.

kris

I completely agree with you. I wrote a post on it last night but it was locked before I was able to post it.

You just simply cannot understand what it is like to be a parent unless you are a parent. Plain and simple. You can read countless books on different parenting styles, theories, blah blah blah. . .you can be a PhD in child psychology. . .and still just not get it. I read a ton of books with my first child and trashed them while PG with my second.

My BIL and sis (no kids yet but are PG with their first) are the worst. They have given us so many "pearls of wisdom" about parenting over the last 3 years that I rarely speak to my BIL now. Read my post about my boob-focused daughter in the parenting section. They have had MUCH to say about this and how they have read articles that it will cause her great psychological harm. You just can't understand this issue though unless you have nursed a child.

I, personally, can't stand parenting "advice" from non-parents and it isn't that I want a hallelujah chorus of support. I want some advice from someone who has direct experience. If you don't have direct experience, I'll still politely listen to you and take your advice with a grain of salt.

[SuzySunshine]

This again...fine, if you don't want our opinions please make the forum private and keep those of us with kids out b/c yes, we're not parents and maybe we won't ever be so we can't possibly understand what is going on.

We get that our opinions/thoughts will change if we ever have children.

This rift has been brought up before, almost caused me to leave the site last year - let it go! Until you make threads user specific anyone can, and will, comment. If you choose to ignore it, ignore it but don't bash us b/c we have opinions.

[SuzySunshine]

I'm not going on my opinions/experience, I didn't post in the thread in question and I'm saying this based on my experience on other boards where those without children have been shunned which seems to be what's happening here. However no one on this board knows what the person that was called out on the other thread is going through.

I'm just saying if you don't want our opinions, don't read them or don't respond to them but don't call out a person when you don't really know what is going on with them.

[PrincessFiona]

Cheri,

The point of my thread is not to alienate anyone....No one is shunning anyone.

I think I addressed not only parenting, but professional issues as well....my point was to basically say that regardles of whether it is parenting, career or anything else...that we don't really know what it will be like until we are there.

Many of the things that we dream about aren't always as we imagined them...but again...I'm not just referring to parenting.

No one is picking on non-parents. I hope that you know me well enough by now to understand that there is nothing that I would say to intentionally alientate anyone.

You will be a mom one day, Cheri..and you will be a good one.

Kris

[SuzySunshine]

I, personally, can't stand parenting "advice" from non-parents and it isn't that I want a hallelujah chorus of support. I want some advice from someone who has direct experience. If you don't have direct experience, I'll still politely listen to you and take your advice with a grain of salt.

Since we obviously can't get past that I'm the one posting here maybe I'll sign out and do it anonymously. This comment is what needs to be stressed, read it or don't read it but don't call someone out b/c they're not a parent. Maybe what we really need is a thread on internet etiquette.

I like Annie's comparison to infertility issues, as well as the comparison I made to a dispute in someone's own area of expertise. (Again, I'm only an expert on what goes on inside this household, and even then I'm usually befuddled).

I also think it can all be in how the ideas / suggestions / opinions are couched -- and it may be too much to ask folks to tiptoe around their phrasing. Saying "I've read X and am curious to see how that translates to the real world once I have kids." is a lot different than saying "I think X and it's based on Y." As my pediatrician told me - "your baby didn't read the book, so chances are your baby isn't going to do what the book says."

This carries over to lots of subjects: pre-80 hour work week, people just starting vs. people done w/training (there are others, I know). It's the main reason I try to stay out of the "Pediatrics" and "Colonoscopy" forums - who wants to hear "Back in MY day ..."??? As unfair as it may seem, I just usually feel the need to tread lightly when commenting on a topic I don't have first hand experience in, or have moved through and am not "in the thick of". Another example: Match Day. I remember how I was THE bride, it was all about me, it was all about what favors I ordered, my dress, the locale, etc. Fast forward 8 years and I'm sickened at the money I spent (which I felt was entirely reasonable back then), and wish I'd made it very, very simple. I know if someone had tried to tell me that back then, I'd have been super, super ticked. So I stay out (for the most part), or try to make my comments benign -- or at the very most, say my peace w/a "disclaimer" and move on.

I don't think non-parents need to stay out of the Parenting discussion. I especially love hearing how THEIR parents did things, what they liked / disliked, and how it affected them as adults. Or even what they've read on a subject ... to an extent.

And Cheri - FWIW I have no memory of a post from you that I thought to be judgemental. You always seem to do the "I'm not a parent yet ..." and your phrasing isn't "and if you do what I said, your kids will straighten up and fly right." I'm not saying SMS was that way yesterday either.

[PrincessFiona]

well...I sometimes chuckle at parenting advice from non-parents too..though..admitteldly, I get a good laugh over some parenting advice from parents Adn please...feel free to have a hearty laugh over any advice that I give I think it all depends on where you're at in your life. Now that my children are older, I'm more likely to take advice on particular issues more seriously from people who have older children....that isn't a bad thing.

Cheri, I am not sure why you're hurting so much over this issue and I feel really badly. I haven't been in your shoes and so I don't really feel like I can...give you any feedback...I know that this must be a stressful and difficult time for you and perhaps it is a topic you are feeling sensitive about?

We all think you're great...at the end of the day, it's just another thread about differing opinions...nothing more and nothing less..and it isn't directed at you or anyone else. It is definitely not worth you getting upset over.





kris

[PrincessFiona]

This carries over to lots of subjects: pre-80 hour work week, people just starting vs. people done w/training (there are others, I know). It's the main reason I try to stay out of the "Pediatrics" and "Colonoscopy" forums - who wants to hear "Back in MY day ..."???

It does, doesn't it.

It might offend people, but...I even chose my pediatrician partly based on the fact that she has 4 children and works part-time. I don't even feel *understood* often by my friends or docs who *just* have 1 or 2 kids. (Have I ruffled feathers?) It isn't a judgement statement as much as it is a desire to have someone who knows what it is really, really like to live with the many different issues inherent in big families

Someone smack me...I don't mean to hurt feelings.

Ultimately though, since I have a gaggle of kids, I pretty much smile and nod when I get advice from...well...just about anyone. I listen, of course and consider the advice...but generally speaking it also doesn't bother me when someone offers up their unsolicited (or solicited opinions).

Anything that might be construed as offensive in this post was of course not meant that way...

kris

[SuzySunshine]

Obviously I'm not conveying what I want to here. Let me try again.

There are members here that made posts on the previous thread that WERE judgemental about another member's comments/suggestions. Now that member doesn't have children so several times she was called out about that fact. IT WASN'T ME, it has NOTHING to do with my situation.

Yet, I feel it necessary to point that out b/c I think she's gone, I don't think she's coming back. As I said in my previous post I think TheFairQueen said it best - if you don't want opinions of someone that hasn't been there done that then fine, read them and move on BUT don't call that person out as someone with no experience therefore they have no idea what they're talking about.

Clear as mud, right?

[PrincessFiona]

I don't think someone's opinion doesn't matter just because they haven't experienced x,y or z. Someone can be a good rheumatologist without having ever had a rheumatoid problem, can be a good therapist w/o having had any major life traumas. You wouldn't discount their advice, of course...but....having a rheumatoid problem or major life trauma might give them a diff perspective and deeper understanding?

kris

[Rapunzel]

Obviously I'm not conveying what I want to here. Let me try again.

There are members here that made posts on the previous thread that WERE judgemental about another member's comments/suggestions. Now that member doesn't have children so several times she was called out about that fact. IT WASN'T ME, it has NOTHING to do with my situation.

Yet, I feel it necessary to point that out b/c I think she's gone, I don't think she's coming back. As I said in my previous post I think TheFairQueen said it best - if you don't want opinions of someone that hasn't been there done that then fine, read them and move on BUT don't call that person out as someone with no experience therefore they have no idea what they're talking about.

Clear as mud, right?

No, I understand.

I'm glad you are articulating your feelings so well on this.

My knee-jerk reaction is to have my hackles raised if I hear a non-parent give parenting advice. But, I think what is really the issue there is if there is a criticism - overt or covert of my particular parenting choices. Because, I think, if a nonparent were to complement my parenting choices/styles I definitely don't think I would be put out!

So, you've given me something to think about. My own sister (who I mentioned on a different thread as being the one who would have the kids and I would just be the aunt) has been unable to have children biologically. It has been a source of tremendous grief for her. It was a factor which led to the end of her first marriage, unfortunately. She is a beautiful, intelligent, wonderful, kind person. She knows children and understands them - to a degree. She is a children's author and illustrator and she is very good at it.

And, on one hand I greatly appreciate her comprehension of children so well. And, on the other hand even she acknowledges that her experience is through the eyes of a child (because she remembers being a child) and as an outsider observing her nephew and neices interacting with their parents. In other words, she has insights - but not on-the-job experience. I DO tend to simply overlook her comments and advice that are, in my opinion, unreasonable or even silly - because I love her and I know she means well. And, I think she has learned over the years when to bite her tongue because she can't see the other perspectives as well - she can imagine them - but her imagination might be wrong.

So, I see why you are hurt. And, I can only understand it (your pain) from an outsider's point of view because I only see this through others' eyes - yours and my sister's.


Now, having said that, I know that before I had children I was a complete and utter nitwit on the subject of parenting. To my credit I had few, if any, opinions on parenting. I didn't think about it because it wasn't within my reality at that time. Same with marriage. Same with home ownership. Same with being married to a man in medicine. No clue!

So, perhaps I will develop an even thicker skin and just chuckle to myself if I read parenting advice from non-parents that is just, well, off. But, I also have to acknowledge that there are an awful lot of non-parents that have some sort of authority over parenting and can really, really destroy the lives of children AND parents (social workers come to mind, also school employees, therapists, and many others). I helped my husband study for many of his exams in medical school. I sat through him trying to teach me a bit of radiology ( ). But, in the end, I don't have the experience he has. I don't have the "time in" that he has. I just don't have a clue about certain - important - things in medicine and radiology in particular. And, if I began giving medical advice people WOULD get hurt.

Medicine is not any more important a job than parenting (in many ways parenting is oh so much more important). And, because of that we parents (well, at least the ones who are trying their hardest) know that there are dangerous pitfalls. Perhaps it rankles us in the way it rankles physicians to hear a non-medically trained person (or even just a non-md) give medical advice?

I guess I'm like Ladybug - I see both sides on this.

[Rapunzel]

Let's liken this to being a medical spouse:

How many of us complain about the comments we receive from non-medical spouses? How many of those comments are, we find, completely and utterly off the mark? How many times do we, as medical spouses, just want a "hallelujah chorus" from other people who "get it"?

That is the closest analogy I can make to parenting advice from non-parents.

I also don't like the, "just wait till your baby is born, just wait till their toddlers, oh just wait till you have a teen, just wait till..." these statements are almost like people are rooting for you to struggle. Instead of building others up these statements tear them down.

Interesting point, Tara. I hadn't thought of it that way.

Let's hear it for your cable guy!

[Rapunzel]

I also don't like the, "just wait till your baby is born, just wait till their toddlers, oh just wait till you have a teen, just wait till..." these statements are almost like people are rooting for you to struggle. Instead of building others up these statements tear them down.

Interesting point, Tara. I hadn't thought of it that way.

Let's hear it for your cable guy!

But, you know, those people DO have a point. Until my brother in law (whom I have helped raise - he stays with us for months at a time) hit his teen years I honestly didn't have much of a clue on teenagers. The last five years have been eye openers! Until my oldest child got out of toddlerhood I honestly didn't know what it was like to have a child who was capable of truly making informed decisions. And, the list goes on and on. Right now I have NO CLUE what it will be like to have kids who are, gasp!, ADULTS (heaven help me - my heart is stopping!).