Requiring Children...

diggitydot wrote:

And by offensively religious, I mean those irritatingly irrational people who wear their religion, (whichever it maybe), on their sleeves like a badge of honor and refuse to listen or respect anyone else's beliefs or ethics. This is definitely a small percentage of the religious, but a very vocal percentage, at that.


There is also a large percentage of non-religious people who you could put in this same category.


pstone Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:43 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:

Express your religious beliefs - not legislate everyone else into following them.



This is true, but it also works in reverse. The 'non' religous can't claim they come from a point of view that is 'right' so it is also subjective yet want to legislate as well.


ITA with the responders to these posts.

(Edited to provide a gap between my agreement with the other posters and my personal opinion which in no way reflects anyone else's thoughts).

I haven't been here long so I am only speaking from a limited few months of experience with this board but I have noticed a definite anti-Christian belief vibe going on here. Just my honest opinion. If you are a Christian, you tend to get lumped into the Bush, Pat Robertson, homophobic, closed minded group (unfairly, IMO, seeing as I am independent, do NOT like Bush OR Robertson, am not homophobic, and would like to think of myself as open minded).

If you explain that you feel a certain way about an issue because you are a die-hard liberal, that seems to be OK here. Or because you are Jewish, that's OK, too. But if you feel the way you do because you are a Christian, that seems to be not very OK.

Anyway, hope this doesn't piss off too many. Just my personal .02 from a few months of observation.

[diggitydot]

There is also a large percentage of non-religious people who you could put in this same category.

Oh, absolutely! One of my neighbors is a die-hard athiest and she's just as bad as the uber-religious at spouting off without regard for the beliefs of those around her.

[Sheherezade]

I haven't been here long so I am only speaking from a limited few months of experience with this board but I have noticed a definite anti-Christian belief vibe going on here. Just my honest opinion. If you are a Christian, you tend to get lumped into the Bush, Pat Robertson, homophobic, closed minded group (unfairly, IMO, seeing as I am independent, do NOT like Bush OR Robertson, am not homophobic, and would like to think of myself as open minded).

If you explain that you feel a certain way about an issue because you are a die-hard liberal, that seems to be OK here. Or because you are Jewish, that's OK, too. But if you feel the way you do because you are a Christian, that seems to be not very OK.

Anyway, hope this doesn't piss off too many. Just my personal .02 from a few months of observation.

This is one of the reasons I've been toting that :adminpower: sign so much in this thread -- and locking others (to the chagrin of many). We've had this problem and left-leaning bent pointed out way too often over the last 5 years. Can't we all just get along?

There's a place for everyone's opinion here. If we all just speak to others that agree with us, we will remain divided forever -- and constantly reinforced that we are "right" .

I have noticed that there is a stronger conservative group in here than ever before. I'm glad no one has resorted to throwing rocks. Usually by page 7 of a heated debate, we've gotten to the "Oh YEAH?" "YEAH!" phase.

[Bluejay]

THIS is the reason we have the First Ammendment - to protect religion and the ability to express your religious beliefs.

Express your religious beliefs - not legislate everyone else into following them.

As I pointed out a couple of pages ago, I vote. When anyone registers to vote, they are not asked about their religion, lack of religion, beliefs about God, about homosexuals, or anything like that.

So if I, as a religious person, vote, Yes, I will vote according to how I feel. But so will people of every different religion, athiests, agnostics, pro- and anti- homosexuals, every has that same right. My vote doesn't force anyone to follow me, it's just one vote, the same as anyone else has.

[SuzySunshine]

Mental note - do not post stories that I think are worthy b/c they always incite very heated debates.

As for the comment about being Christian and being on this board. I'm Catholic, always have been and while DH and I have grown away from the church since we were thrown into residency we are still Christian/Catholic. We have some very devout Christian/Catholic members on this board, they do tend to stay out of the debate threads and that is their choice.

But we all also have to remember "what is said in the debate thread stays in the debate threads" and hopefully aren't taken personally, though I will admit that can be hard when you have very strong beleifs on something.

Happy Friday!

[Sheherezade]

This thread has been interesting and made me think about issues that are easily swept under the rug in this family. It's difficult to discuss, but for the most part I think we've allowed everyone to express their ideas respectfully.

I agree. I think that is one of the things that attracts so many to this site - including non-medical spouses like you, Bluejay!

People here are thoughtful and very respectful most of the time. I think that the left leaners sometimes outnumber the conservatives - and sometimes a series of misunderstandings in a touchy discussion can lead to a blow up. Sometimes that happens behind the scenes in PMs and no one ever knows they've offended. Other times, well, we *all* know who's calling out who.

I'm glad that we all do so well. We are so much better at this than Congress.

[pstone]

Usually by page 7 of a heated debate, we've gotten to the "Oh YEAH?" "YEAH!" phase.

It is a result of the calming affect a SAHD can have on all you women.

Usually by page 7 of a heated debate, we've gotten to the "Oh YEAH?" "YEAH!" phase.

It is a result of the calming affect a SAHD can have on all you women.

Good point, Cheri! Thanks for the reminder. My feeling has been that more of our liberal leaning members participate in the debates and that adds to a perception of it being skewed. But what do I know. I need the purple vamoose guy emoticon :!

[Stella]

I haven't been here long so I am only speaking from a limited few months of experience with this board but I have noticed a definite anti-Christian belief vibe going on here. Just my honest opinion. If you are a Christian, you tend to get lumped into the Bush, Pat Robertson, homophobic, closed minded group (unfairly, IMO, seeing as I am independent, do NOT like Bush OR Robertson, am not homophobic, and would like to think of myself as open minded).

If you explain that you feel a certain way about an issue because you are a die-hard liberal, that seems to be OK here. Or because you are Jewish, that's OK, too. But if you feel the way you do because you are a Christian, that seems to be not very OK.

Anyway, hope this doesn't piss off too many. Just my personal .02 from a few months of observation.

I made the "don't judge" comment and I'm Christian. I am a middle of the road "Republican"! I don't think my views (or Pollyanna's or any other Republican) have ever been insulted or degraded even though they are often different. I think everyone gets too upset over these internet conversations. You know what you believe and that's that.

I mean...right?

[DCJenn]

and I'll always be left.

(which of course, is always right...)(by which I mean correct...not anti-wrong...because that would imply that those who are right [which is wrong, by which I mean incorrect but not offensive] would be right which as we already know is far to many right and wrongs for one discussion and therefore I'm going to give myself a yellow flag and be done with the entire thread.)

Hugs and kisses to all-

Jenn

[Flynn]

and I'll always be left.

(which of course, is always right...)(by which I mean correct...not anti-wrong...because that would imply that those who are right [which is wrong, by which I mean incorrect but not offensive] would be right which as we already know is far to many right and wrongs for one discussion and therefore I'm going to give myself a yellow flag and be done with the entire thread.)

Hugs and kisses to all-

Jenn

Laughing outloud here....at Jenn's pithy comments.

I'm late -- was on a trip -- this thread is so long! IMPRESSIVE!!!!

Glad we can disagree and hug all at the same time!

[Vishenka69]

I'm still confused why religion is brought into the discussion about the civil unions? Don't we have separation of church and state? If the issue is whether or not the government (city, state, federal, etc.) recognizes the union, what role does religion play in it? Unless the gov't plans to pick one religion for all of us to follow, the civil union issue shouldn't be tainted by any one religious belief.

[Auspicious]

Don't we have separation of church and state?

I think this is no longer an agreed-upon core American value. It's been put back on the table for debate.

[Bluejay]

I feel like if the response to same-sex couples wanting into the marriage game is to then take away stuff [rights, benefits, traditions] from heterosexuals so we can be equal, then that's just . . . like saying "our choices were to let gays in or burn down the house, so we burned down the house." It's just not the nation I want.

What I was suggesting was not to take away benefits, but rather make them available to everyone, from a legal perspective. Then allow the religious perspective do what it will.

As long as the complete number (and important ones at that) of privileges are tied to marriage, then yes, it is a civil right. To deny anyone access is unconstitutional.

I think that religion plays a huge part in this discussion and that is why it is here. Honestly it offends my sense of religion to deny someone the right to marriage and to ordain a man and a woman as the best way to raise a child. It neglects the many ways family can be constructed so that all members grow and are nurtured in wonderful and delightful ways. The God I know doesn't walk that road.

This isn't anti-religion. This is about a particular religious movement in this country championing anti-gay rhetoric so vehemently that it is impossible to participate in this debate without engaging that particular perspective.

I think there are 2 reasons religion has entered this debate.

One is that when anyone casts their one vote, if they are religious that will affect their voting choice. But that is not the state determining each individual's religion, or mandating any one religion; it actually is power in the opposite direction where each individual can vote and put in their voice to affect the state.

And the second was well put by Gwendolyn in her last paragraph that I just quoted. There is a particular anti-gay religious movement. However, on this site and IRL not all religious people are part of that movement. Religious people are individuals too. I know I have my own mind, and I know plenty of other religious people who think things through carefully for themselves too.

[pstone]

Just for the sake of being devils advocate, I bet that those religious people don't see themselves as 'Anti-Gay' but rather 'Pro-God' or perhaps simply following their beliefs.

It is a sympton of our society that we call anyone we don't agree with 'Anti-something' or 'hate-speech'

To see the flip side I am sure those 'Religous' people think people are 'Anti-god' as well.

I think religion is in this dicussion becase 'Marriage' is a religious term and institution (even though we today have secularized it) And in part both sides are guilty for not finding compromise. There are 'gay' groups that want nothing more to stick it to 'religious' people and would never accept 'civil unions' and there are religious people that fail to love thy neighbor enough to give gay people 'civil unions'

Auspicious wrote:
I feel like if the response to same-sex couples wanting into the marriage game is to then take away stuff [rights, benefits, traditions] from heterosexuals so we can be equal, then that's just . . . like saying "our choices were to let gays in or burn down the house, so we burned down the house." It's just not the nation I want.

When Auspicious writes that is it with the same amount of energy and belief that I am sure goes into people not wanting 'A Sodom and Gomorrah'

I guess the point I am not making well is there are equally strong beliefs on both sides, neither is wrong and neither is right. There are no moral absolutes in my book but lots of them in others.