VA Tech

[houseelf]

My thoughts and prayers go out to all the victims and their families.

I've been absolutely forcing myself to not talk about the politics of this event ever since I heard the news. Nonetheless, I think that the gun control issue is part and parcel of talking about this unthinkable tragedy. The great American gun control debate can get vehement, passionate, and downright ugly at times and I hope that it doesn't denigrate the lives lost to this tragedy. Still, I don't think we CAN talk about VA Tech without at least contemplating the driving forces behind it. This is an issue that merits thoughtful national dialogue.

Without further ado, I, for one, will go on the record to state that guns are way too accessible in this country. I'm not saying that we outlaw them entirely, but I just don't believe that more conceal and carry laws are the answer. People of all walks of life go off the deep end every day. The difference is that in this country, these disturbed individuals can kill and maim a staggering amount of innocent bystanders with alarming ease. How many more of these killing sprees must we endure? Sadly, "minor" gun incidents are barely news worthy anymore.

O.K. Let's keep it clean.....

Kelly

[DCJenn]

I agree that access to weapons is far easier than most people would like to think.

I have a colleague who is actually taking two weeks of leave because her ex-boyfriend (yes, a felon) who is getting out of jail this week has duffle bags FULL of guns hidden in his garage. Oh, sure, when he went into the pokey he surrended all of the licensed guns in his possession.

So, he met the letter of the law, if not the spirit.

and why did he go to jail? Because before he had met her, he pulled a gun on his ex-wife. Only once my colleague got into this relationship which OF COURSE ended up with her fearing for her life every single day did she find out the whole story. (everything was the ex-wife's fault, of course- she made him pull the gun on her.)

My friend is actually filing a restraining order (will do nothing but piss off the ex but she needs the legal records) and is having a new alarm system installed, a new lighting system installed and is taking self-defense classes. The one thing she isn't doing is buying a gun. She's 5'2, he's 6'4" and the last thing she wants to do is get into a battle that she will lose.

Yes, there are law-abiding gun owners who lock their weapons and the magazines seperately. Yes, hunting is certainly a hobby that enjoys active participation.

The second amendment was so that we could muster a militia if we were attacked. We now have a permanent volunteer army. I think we need to change the conversation from "every man has the right to defend himself" to "OK, but in the meantime, how to we get the millions of illegal weapons off the street."

We can tackle the legal weapons owned by people with some apparent mental health issues later.

It's going to take baby steps.

But, as with race, religion and politics, CIVIL debate is always a good thing.

Jenn

PS- and don't think that I don't think about the CNN shooting and all of the other workplace violence shootings that have just recently happened. I'm across the hall from where she used to have her office. We have a police officer in the dispensary from 6am to 10am. After 10 am we're screwed.

[Vanquisher]

I agree that access to weapons is far easier than most people would like to think.

Yes, there are law-abiding gun owners who lock their weapons and the magazines seperately. Yes, hunting is certainly a hobby that enjoys active participation.

The second amendment was so that we could muster a militia if we were attacked. We now have a permanent volunteer army. I think we need to change the conversation from "every man has the right to defend himself" to "OK, but in the meantime, how to we get the millions of illegal weapons off the street."

We can tackle the legal weapons owned by people with some apparent mental health issues later.

It's going to take baby steps.

But, as with race, religion and politics, CIVIL debate is always a good thing.

ITA!! When guns are this accessible, you are putting them in the hands of criminals, children, and the mentally unstable.

I should have the right to send my children to school, college, the local Gas-n-Go, etc. without fearing someone opening fire because their life is in turmoil. YES, we absolutely need to help people with mental health issues. Can we possibly reach everyone with suicidal or homicidal ideations? NO. So, let's make it far tougher to kill a bunch of people, shouldn't we?

I mean, the second amendment was put into place when we needed the be able to form a militia, as Jenn said, and furthermore, guns back then fired a single shot, and not one a second or faster. Why does the public need guns that are automatic or semi-automatic?

There has to be better regulation. I think the 2nd amendment is outdated and does not have a place in our current society.

AGREE! I did a paper in college on gun control. The class was current economic events.

Picture this: A class that was literally half economic majors and half social work majors. The prof was obviously a econ prof and was not happy about my paper. I found a lot of evidence on how most people who own guns have:
1) accidents
2) the gun turned on them (by someone who handles a gun more)

More "friendly fire" happens in homes then actual protection.

I am going to plug Bowling for Columbine. That has a lot of good info about our sad gun control policies in this country. You can compare other countries and they have less violence and less guns.

Less guns= Less Violence

I agree with House Elf, I didn't want to talk about it but it is something I feel very strongly about.

[SuzySunshine]

I agree with most of the sentiments here. I grew up with guns in the house, my dad carries one for his job and has several hunting rifles. In our old house (early 1900's farm house) he didn't have a good way to secure them. When they built their new house last year he built a closet specifically to hold his gun safe and only he has the key to the closet and the key to the safe.

There are people in this world that are responsible with guns and as long as they have been through the proper checks and have the proper safety measures in place at home they should be allowed to have them. The fact that you need a background check to get a handgun in some states but not a shotgun or rifle is just backwards. A gun is a gun and they should all be checked the same.

What happened was a tragedy but while more or different regulations might help the situation they won't prevent everything.

[alison]

I have been watching a bit of the gathering at Virginia Tech on tv. My heart breaks for these kids, as they're the same age as the ones I teach. It could have been me. It could have been *my* German class. I can't imagine the sheer fear and torture that these students and professors went through.

I think there is no place for guns in our society. Absolutely none. I don't understand owning a gun for protection, hunting, or otherwise. I don't mean to criticize your family, Cheri - I'm only speaking from the point of view of someone for whom guns are totally out of the scope of reality. My high school had one of the first school shootings in the nation (luckily no deaths, but 2 were injured). I feel very emotional about it when school shootings happen and DO NOT want my children nor any of my students to have to experience this.

Guns are far too accessible. A guy with a Green Card can get a gun? What is going on here?

[SuzySunshine]

Alison, I don't take it as a cristicism - everyone has a right to their own opinion. But when my dad is arresting people who are hunting (i.e in possession of high power rifles) you better beleive he's going to be carrying a gun himself so not having guns in our house wasn't an option.

[alison]

Alison, I don't take it as a cristicism - everyone has a right to their own opinion. But when my dad is arresting people who are hunting (i.e in possession of high power rifles) you better beleive he's going to be carrying a gun himself so not having guns in our house wasn't an option.

Phew. I'm glad you understand.

[DCJenn]

anyone can get a gun- period.

Now, not everyone can get a LEGAL gun. and Cheri you are so right about the rifles, etc. That was the hunting lobby that scored that one. (and I wonder how Dick Cheney's buddy who was shot in the face feels about guns now?)

It's just one more symptom of a pretty messed up society.

Jenn

[Deebs]

I agree with the need for harsher punishments for illegal gun use and possession. The reality is, no matter how strict we make gun laws, they won't be strict enough until those being obtained and used illegally are cracked down on.

There have been many documented cases of off-duty police using their weapons to stop or limit crimes being committed. These are HIGHLY trained individuals, who IMO should have some ability to carry, if that makes for crime intervention. Just think - if an off-duty cop was in one of those classes and had shot the shooter, the number of fatalities might have been drastically lower. This guy wasn't afraid to die - I really think a lethal weapon is the only thing that would have stopped him.
It's when we have untrained, unregulated criminals out there using guns that we end up with these problems. Guns are not used legally in committing crimes.

So, I do think we need more gun control, but different than what we've done in the past. We have plenty of laws regulating the guns that aren't being used in crimes. What about the illegal guns? That is where we need to focus our gun control efforts.

Also, sadly, the only effective gun injury prevention program targeting kids was developed by the NRA. While it's a great program, it would be awesome if an organization without any interest in gun possession would develop an effective program. With my kids, I will always assume that they will, at some point, be in a home with an unlocked gun (statistically, it's probably a reality), so they will be taught what to do if they happen upon a gun, as well as the distruction guns cause. My friends who are police officers do this and I don't think their kids would think of messing with a gun.

[Deebs]

One more thing...
Sorry, but I really think we need to figure out what states have this figured out best right now, and bring the other states up to par a bit. In Minnesota, there are fairly tight laws for those who want to carry concealed weapons. For those who have guns in their homes though, there is really nothing they have to do. No Firearm Owners Identification card, nothing. So, there isn't an official record in Minnesota of how many guns are even owned here, just those bought, sold, and with concealed carry permits. Can't we put a little more responsibility on our gun owners here??? For a fairly liberal state in many of our policies, our gun policies here are really weird.

[Rapunzel]

I'll just copy what I wrote in the other thread here:

If one person had had a concealed carry permit with a firearm this mass murderer could have been stopped. All it would have taken was ONE person. As it was nobody could stop this apparently insane man. I remember the worst mass murder up until this point in the United States. It happened in the early 90's in Killeen, Texas (ironically the city next to one of the biggest Army bases). A lone gunman walked into a Luby's cafeteria and killed over 20 people. How did Texans react? They logically realized that if ONE person in that cafeteria had been armed this person could have been prevented from killing so many innocents. All it took was ONE person to stop this bloodbath. And, now, today in Texas we have concealed carry laws (and, a corresponding drop in gun-related murders and crime). All it takes is ONE person to stop an evil person intent on harming others.


And, I'll add:

If you want to see crime rates rise through the roof, only criminals have guns, and have a completely impotent police - just look at Great Britain's gun-ban for an example.

If you want to know how dictators take over countries and military coups happen - just look at gun bans.

The reasoning behind the 2nd Ammendment is quite wise - and it, in effect, enforces the 1st Ammendment. Additionally, having the right to "life, liberty, and property" are nice things as well. But, you cannot have those rights if there is no way for you to protect them.

Examine the history of the world and you will see that it is a history of people being conquered in part by not defending themselves or doing a poor job at it. Look at modern day dictatorships and totalitarian governments and one of the common threads you will find is - the average citizenry (ie those not on the government's payroll) are not allowed firearms. This isn't theory we're talking about here - it is cold, hard reality. And, it is a reality that much of the world faces.

It is laughable to have a government such as China criticizing our freedoms. Look at China for a good example of why firearm ownership of the average citizen is a right in the longest-running democracy in modern times.

As a member of the NRA I can say unequivocally that one of the biggest pushes the NRA has is for firearm education. They do have a comprehensive firearm education program for children and for adults. As a firearm owner and lifelong firearm user (first time I pulled a trigger was at the age of 3 - and it was part of my education on these weapons) I can say that it is highly important that anyone - anyone - who owns a firearm know the safety rules involved.

[Rapunzel]

AGREE! I did a paper in college on gun control. The class was current economic events.

Picture this: A class that was literally half economic majors and half social work majors. The prof was obviously a econ prof and was not happy about my paper. I found a lot of evidence on how most people who own guns have:
1) accidents
2) the gun turned on them (by someone who handles a gun more)

More "friendly fire" happens in homes then actual protection.

I am going to plug Bowling for Columbine. That has a lot of good info about our sad gun control policies in this country. You can compare other countries and they have less violence and less guns.

Less guns= Less Violence

I agree with House Elf, I didn't want to talk about it but it is something I feel very strongly about.

I'll bet you didn't include the estimated number of crimes prevented by guns being in the home did you?

Firearms are used many times to protect and save lives & property, often without a shot being fired. With low figures by admittedly anti-gun groups as many as 1.5 million times, to as many as 2.5 million times a year. This means that each year, firearms are used more than 80 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take life.

Clinton researchers concede that guns are used 1.5 million times annually for self-defense. According to the Clinton Justice Department, there are as many as 1.5 million cases of self-defense with a firearm every year. The National Institute of Justice published this figure in 1997 as part of "Guns in America"—a study which was authored by noted anti-gun criminologists Philip Cook and Jens Ludwig.
http://www.ncjrs.org/txtfiles/165476.txt

Someone on SDN once said it best:

There are roughly 260,000,000 firearms in private ownership in this country. There are approximately 30,000 deaths every year involving a firearm. however, only a little over a third were homicides, so that means that there is only 1 homicide per 22,912 firearms per year. If they were designed to kill, they are doing a damned poor job in the hands of law abiding American citizens.

When you look at the real numbers more prevention of crime happens with private gun ownership than accidents. Accident numbers do need to be as low as possible - and that is primarily done through education.

Bowling for Columbine was very good propaganda - it was believed but, unfortunately for those who took it as truth, wrong. Here is one of the many websites that goes through many of the untruths Michael Moore propagated in his propaganda film: http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html


And, finally, as I mentioned in a previous post, any student of history (ancient AND modern) can relate that one of the largest impediments to dictatorship and/or military coup is the average citizenry having access to private protection via firearms.

[Rapunzel]

I don't think the issue is gun control, for or against. To me, the issue is that we as a society have not addressed the underlying drivers that make us such a violent nation. It's not the legal guns that make the people in this country violent, although I *do* think the mentality that everyone has a right to bear arms (which like many things in the founding of our country have been morphed into something unrecognizable from the original purpose, but I digress) leads to a lot of cavalier behavior.

Actually if you read the original intent of the right of the citizenry to keep and bear arms you will find that those doing the morphing are those attempting to argue citizens should not have this right. Your first stop on the reading journey should be The Federalist Papers.

Why do so many kids think that aggressive behavior is the best means to gain respect of others? Look at gang culture. Look at the decay of shame, respect, and compassion that permeates every facet of our society, from theft to violence to talking loudly on cell phones in nice restaurants. We have no courtesy for others. Many younger members of our society are lacking compassion. Why aren't they learning this at home?

Until we solve the larger social ills that are part and parcel to a capitalist society (in other words, we will not solve the larger social ills), gun control and every other law under the sun will have a nominal effect at best.

Gun education doesn't have jack to do with this, either. Eddie the Eagle gets face time with the elementary school kids in my mom's classroom, but they are deprived art and music classes. We are dumbing down our children and arming them at the same time. We are teaching only the what but not the why. We don't encourage let alone permit kids to be emotional and we quiet them with medication. We walk past the poor and glorify the lazy rich (Paris Hilton anyone?). Our society not only permits but encourages, with purchasing power, rappers who degrade women and flash bling. And the vast majority of those supporters by the way are white teenaged boys who blow the other demographics of rap consumers out of the water.

My point in all of this is that this sort of violence will happen again and it will be on this scale again. Maybe not this month, perhaps not for years, but it will definitely reoccur. Until we stop trying to fix the cancers of our culture with bandaids like gun control, we will never improve our own circumstance. Like other fallen societies, so will we collapse in upon ourselves.

I agree with every bit of this, though. Every bit of it.

With the exception of the one little (but important) point I disagreed with at the top of the post I really, really think you hit the nail on the head.

[Rapunzel]

The right to bear arms was initially intended so that we could raise a militia in the event that our new country was attacked. We have a full, gigantic, mightily powerful volunteer army now. In that respect, the 2nd Amendment is outdated and now changed into what it is today... the rhetoric in that debate thus becomes not so much a direct attack but an attack similar to the amorphous shadow-boxing definition of the "war on terror". I don't have buy-in on that.

Actually, the founders were concerned about a large, standing army (in that case, the British). And, so, yes, they believed a check on a nation's military strength (internal as well as that of foreign nations) was for every citizen to have the right to bear arms individually. IOW: Part of that was to be able to call up a militia from the citizenry in times of war/invasion (such as when the British invaded in 1812) and part of that was to provide a check on the potential for military coup and dictatorship via control of the military. Those are all timely topics and none of it is "outdated" as these are consistant themes throughout written history onwards to today where it is a reality that many people face around the world.