Dumbledore is gay

Re: Dumbledore is gay

I would have never thought anything about their relationship in any way, if Rowlings herself had not made it an issue in the book. She was the one who had that Rita chick write chapter in the Dumbledore book that suggests that Harry and Dumbledore had a scandalous relationship.

Ok so am I getting this right, that basically it was alluded to that a child and an adult had a sexual/romantic based relationship? I that if that is so than that is a problem, since this is a book for children. Literature has lots of scandalous things in them, including the Bible. That doesn't mean you want to read the Old Testament to your child about people eating their own children, or two sisters seducing and sleeping with their own father, or how a concubine was raped and cut up in 12 pieces and sent to the tribes of Judah.

If that is so then this is 100% inappropriate for young children. We should not confuse our children that stachatory rape is ok if both parties want it, cause a child should be protected from things they can't possilby know they want, - and lets not forget their minds aren't mature enough to see the differance.

I see this not about gay rights, a gay character (hello I love My Best Friends Wedding, and won't ban it cause someone happens to be gay) , but an inappropriate relationship that is glorified - and written for children who can't possibly understand what is implicated and if it is right or not.

:anyolne:

Btw I never read the books, it was on my list to read eventually, so folks fill me in - is the bottom line - a stachatory relationship?

[DCJenn]

Re: Dumbledore is gay

No one had EVER mentioned it here before and these people dissected everything about these books. (go back and read the posts in the book section)

So, having never read the books, I'd have to hazard a guess and say that this is a publicity stunt now that the series has ended and sales are going to drop off...

Jenn

Re: Dumbledore is gay

I would have never thought anything about their relationship in any way, if Rowlings herself had not made it an issue in the book. She was the one who had that Rita chick write chapter in the Dumbledore book that suggests that Harry and Dumbledore had a scandalous relationship.

Ok Jenn, but she is saying that this relationship was written about, not just talked about by the author - so that was my question - was it written about, and to be read by children?

[DCJenn]

Re: Dumbledore is gay

Well, again- since no one here who has read the things is posting, I'd say that since these books have been around for close to a decade, and this is the first time its EVER been mentioned, I'm sticking w/ the publicity thing.

I mean, seriously? The worst some of the more conservative groups could come up w/ previously was because it had wizards and such. (I can't remember which hyper conservative anti-everything group decided to ban Harry Potter)

and it's been some of our most conservative members who have loved them.

timing...

Jenn

[SuzySunshine]

Re: Dumbledore is gay

I don't recall anything written in any of the books about this "relationship". Yes, they talked about Dumbledore's close friendships with some male wizards, but they were written as mentor type relationships, nothing more. Though I guess some people could have read this between the lines if they like.

I agree with Jenn, I think this is a publicity stunt or a way for JK to increase sales of the books by opening them up to another "market."

[poky]

Re: Dumbledore is gay

I would have never thought anything about their relationship in any way, if Rowlings herself had not made it an issue in the book. She was the one who had that Rita chick write chapter in the Dumbledore book that suggests that Harry and Dumbledore had a scandalous relationship.

Ok Jenn, but she is saying that this relationship was written about, not just talked about by the author - so that was my question - was it written about, and to be read by children?

I was confused, too. What does DrWahoo mean by "that Rita chick" writing in "the Dumbledore book"?

I also don't know the context of the outing; was she just answering a question? Neil Gaiman had this to say about knowing things about characters, just as an aside:

You always wind up knowing more about your characters than you can get onto the page. Pages are finite, and the story isn't about giving you all the information about everyone in it any more than life is. Things the author knows about characters (or at least, strongly suspects -- it's never really real until it hits the page, because the process of writing is also a process of discovery) that don't make it onto the page could include the characters' backstory, what they like to eat, the toothpaste they use, what happens to them after the story is over or before it began, and what they do in bed. That something didn't turn up in the books just means it didn't make it onto the page or wasn't relevant to the story. (Or even, it made it in and the author cut that scene out because it didn't work. One of my favourite scenes in Anansi Boys went because it made the chapter work better when it was gone.)

(I remember being astonished when I learned a few years ago, from an obituary, that two teachers I'd had as a child were a same-sex couple. Mostly astonished because at the age where they taught me, I didn't imagine that teachers had romantic lives, or were even entirely human; and learning that they were a pair reconfigured everything I knew about them, which wasn't very much.)

Neverwhere has two gay characters who are Out, as far as the book is concerned, and one major character who is gay but it isn't mentioned, simply because that character was one of many people in that book who don't have any sexual or romantic entanglements during the story. So it's irrelevant.

Sometimes even the author doesn't know for sure. (I used to wonder about Lucien the Librarian in Sandman. On the one hand, I strongly suspected he was gay; on the other, he seemed to have a small unrequited thing for Nuala going on. And if it had ever mattered in a story, I would have found out for certain, but it never did, so I didn't.)

And, truth to tell, sexuality tends to be such a minor thing, if you have several hundred characters running around in your head. You know more than you've written. One of the characters in Wall in Stardust, for example, is not what he is pretending to be in a way that has nothing at all to do with sex, although the clues are all there in the book, but if I don't do another story set in Wall you'll never find out who he is, or even why he's interesting.

Re: Dumbledore is gay

I remember nothing about "that Rita chick" (Rita Skeeter) writing about Harry & Dumbledore having a scandalous relationship.

And as far as "knowing a character is gay", I've often heard creative people talk about backstories that aren't included in the book, movie, play, or song. I assume it goes along with the creative process to an extent. I'll admit that I've snickered at the idea in the past, but considering that I'd love to be able to write creatively, I think my reaction is more of a jealousy.

Re: Dumbledore is gay

think JK's allusion to Rita's chapter about D. and H's relationship is not at all about D. and H., but JK's comment on the distorted, scandalous stories that tabloids sell and society gobbles up.

So is Rita writing a book for kids about D? Is this a co-author? Or is this a book of comentary about H.P. that makes an assumption about D & H?

I'm confused here. Is this written in a novel, or just commentary of a suposition? Is there a mention that D & H had a relationship at all? :anyolne:

Re: Dumbledore is gay

Ok - still confused. So Rita is a character in the 7th book. And she makes an assumption about D & H that is left just hanging? And this is never clarified in the book? Then we are still talking about this being brought up in the book itself?

To me, I would not be happy with this as a parent. Sure a teenager you can talk issues about, and so forth but to allude to this as if it could be so for a book written for children, that is not ok with me.

Am I reading this right?

[SuzySunshine]

Re: Dumbledore is gay

Rita never comes right out and says that D is gay, if she does JK doesn't put it in writing in the book. JK said he was gay when asked by a NY student during a US book event last week.

I think its fine for authors to talk about the development of their characters, in this case I still have no issue with my children reading these books b/c no where in the books did I get the sense that D was gay. For those die hard HP fans I'm sure this affects them more, but to me its a piece of the puzzle that she revealed afterwards but never really addressed in her writing.

Re: Dumbledore is gay

Add me to the list of people commenting who haven't read the book.

As I understand it, an audience member asked her a specific question about Dumbledore and she answered it. Perhaps she could have been more vague, but why? Who cares?

According to my bookgroup Potterophiles -- Rowling has complete histories on ALL of her characters. This is something she has known about Dumbledore since the beginning. One of them said that this issue came up in a movie script (don't know which one). There was a flashback scene with Dumbledore and a female love interest and Rowling corrected the script. It doesn't seem to matter significantly for the plot of the book. I'm sure there are some other background character history nuggets that have been revealed but aren't as tittilating as this one.

Re: Dumbledore is gay

A romantic relationship is never mentioned in the book, at all. Rita talks about his best friend when he was a young man, who eventually became his arch rival, and that is who JK has recently said was the love of Dumbledore's life. Knowing that later adds more layers to the relationship but in no way is it a necessary part of the story and it is not included in the novel. Reading these books would not lead to a discussion about homosexuality.

Honestly it's very difficult to tell the story / discuss the books with someone who hasn't read them. I'd suggest reading it and deciding for yourself, rather than allowing unclear statements to cloud your judgement as to whether or not it's appropriate for kids. they really are wonderful books that sweep you up in the tale. I highly reccomend it.

ETA: Nellie - what your bookgroup friends said is the same as I've heard. And I've also heard before about JK having complete histories for all of her characters. There is reference to a tapestry in the Black Family home, and apparently the producers called her for the other characters to include on the tapestry, and she faxed back a list in a matter of minutes w/a very detailed (and entwined) family tree.

[spotty_dog]

Re: Dumbledore is gay

Ok - still confused. So Rita is a character in the 7th book. And she makes an assumption about D & H that is left just hanging? And this is never clarified in the book? Then we are still talking about this being brought up in the book itself?

To me, I would not be happy with this as a parent. Sure a teenager you can talk issues about, and so forth but to allude to this as if it could be so for a book written for children, that is not ok with me.

Am I reading this right?

As Annie said, the character Rita Skeeter was a tabloid-style reporter with a knack for acquiring inaccurate quotes that fueled sensational headlines. I believe DrWahoo is referring to one of these headlines, mentioned in the briefest passing along with a litany of ridiculous, unbelievable stories, that stated something along the lines of "Why does Dumbledore dote so on a single student? Could he have skeevy intentions?" Ridiculous, baiting statements similar to those being made in this thread -- and just as blatantly absurd.

The series grew with the character, and the books about Harry the 16 and 17 year old are NOT children's books. They treat death very frankly, and revolve around adolescent love. They are dark and scary and thrilling and enthralling. If you have a problem with an accusation (in NO WAY a plot point) of illicit activity between teacher and student, then you'll definitely have a problem with the actual meat of the story and I don't recommend it.

As for Skeeter's biography of Dumbledore and the allusions to his seedier past, I came away from the book believing that the seediness was completely to do with A) being friends with Grindelwald at all and B) promoting the Greater Good slogan and repression of Muggles. I would be interested in re-reading though, with the new knowledge that Dumbledore's leanings were such that a relationship with Grindelwald might have been possible.

[DrWahoo]

Re: Dumbledore is gay

I think the progression of these books has made them less and less for children under the age of 13. Harry starts off as 11 I think and then grows to 17. Even then the actual books took so many years to write that her audience grew up also. That aside, Rita Skeeter ,a character in many of the books writes a book in the Deathly Hallows called "The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore". In it she has a whole chapter suggesting an inappropriate relationship between Dumbledore and Harry. Also even some gay activists are not pleased with the way Rowlings revealed his sexuality. In some articles she is noted for saying that now she's given those who don't like her books another reason to reject them. This hints at spitefulness. I also kind of think if this is the first introduction to a gay man that children are going to have, he should be a little be more admirable in the end. I even question how she views gay men. The question that started this whole thing was did Dumbledore find true love. Her answer: he's gay. How is that even relevant to the question ? It sort of implies that gay men can't find true love.

[GrayMatterWife]

Re: Dumbledore is gay

All of this sounds like the makings of a horrible college thesis in which the author tries to make boldly relevant the utterly unimportant:

Dumblesdork and the Purple TeleTubby: The Impact of the Unconsummated Love of the Sexually Marginalized in Children's Literature and Pre-Literature Education.