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Tonight's democratic debates

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  • #16
    Re: Tonight's democratic debates

    Originally posted by PrincessFiona
    "It's not change you can believe in...it's change you can Xerox".

    Seriously, I know Abigail and Jenn will vehemently disagree, but that was freakin' awesome!

    Kris
    Disagree? Well, I thought that was pretty clever. I am not sure if it rises to "freakin' awesome," but I have pretty high standards in terms of oration and rhetoric from political professionals... but I'll give her that it was definitely clever.

    The problem, for HRC, I think, is not that she can't be clever. Her problem seems to be that because she and Obama are so similar in their politic positions, that she can't rely on "I stand for this, he stands for that, my position is better" argument. Instead, she needs to give the voters a reason to choose her over him because she is the better the vehicle to effect those positions. It's not about substantively differentiating the two, I don't think--they have so much in common. It's about selling her as the best banner carrier. And recently, she hasn't been able to do that, primarily because she can't effectively attack Obama. And when she tries to attack, the efforts seem contrived and too "planned" and kind of petty. Plagiarism related to those remarks? Let it go. No one cares. Not even most of the Reps cared. We weren't making fun of him for it or challenging him on it. We just thought she was crazy to fall for the media's taunt, in asking her for her response.

    It must be frustrating for her, because he definitely has weaknesses to attack, which I think have become a bit more evident in his last two speeches: he gets long-winded, repetitve, and relies on sweeping, grand imagery rather than concrete ("policy wonkish")-type solutions. He walks a precarious but effective balance: he says enough to sound wonderful but not enough to give his opponents something to specifically, substantively criticize. Frankly, it's a matter of what-he-doesn't-have-in-real-experience,-he-makes-up-for-in-great-talk. She really could challenge his ability to actually effect the goals that most liberal Dems share--if she could find a way to palletably do it. And she hasn't figured out how to do that, yet.

    She should call John McCain. I bet he's got a team working 24/7 to figure out how to best challenge Obama...

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Tonight's democratic debates

      Abigail,

      I'll tread lightly here, but...I think it is also very difficult for her to criticize him about these things. Towards the beginning of the primary season, any criticisms about his sweeping, grand imagery, for example were immediately twisted by the media to imply that it was racial...that he was 'preaching'...which led to images being put together that her criticisms were racially motivated.

      I think in that respect because we are so sensitive as a society about these issues (understandably so, btw) it makes the criticism more difficult.

      I could be wrong, of course.
      ~Mom of 5, married to an ID doc
      ~A Rolling Stone Gathers No Moss

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Tonight's democratic debates

        Originally posted by PrincessFiona
        My gut feeling is that Obama makes the better candidate but...that Clinton would make the better president.
        Interesting, well-stated observation, IMO. I suspect many Dems share that thought. You should write to HRC campaign. Seriously. There may be a way they could incorporate that thought. Something like a comment by her to the effect of: "I admire Sen. Obama's graceful eloquence and the enthusiasm he has inspired in this campaign. It challenges me as a candidate and has generated a wonderful excitement for our party and our possibilities as a nation. However, beyond the speech-making, after the confetti has fallen and the inauguration balls have concluded, we--the President, this party--must work to make the promises of the campaign trail be realized. I have the experience, the knowledge, and the specific plans to make that happen. I will be the President not only of innovative, sound ideas, but of immediate action and real results. I will not merely be the candidate who beats the Republican candidate this November; I will be the President who makes our shared vision of America's future tomorrow's reality." [With proper inflection and emphasis as necessary, to draw out certain words and make the necessary implications.]

        Or something like that. But that's just my thought, for whatever it's probably not worth...

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Tonight's democratic debates

          I. have.


          In all actuality, she has incorporated things like this into her speeches, but the only coverage you ever here about it is that it "doesn't have traction" or that the "O'mentum" is unstoppable etc.

          My feeling is that there will be some buyer's remorse at some point because eventually the newness will wear off. The campaign has been run like a brilliant string of pep rallies...but pep rallies don't win games. They just appeal to our emotions.

          I was most struck by the fact that last night in the debates, Clinton knew it all cold....and then some. She was ON. Like her or hate her, but Hillary Clinton knows her stuff. Obama isn't as good in the debate format because he gets off track, says ummmm a lot and looks uncomfortable.

          Then I turned on the news channels and listened to them rip her apart. I didn't hear them discussing issues either. Her comments about science for example were just so dead on...I loved that she (and Obama) really took control and refused to stop trying to show the differences in their healthcare policies....There was zero discussion of issues from the debate. The focus? The Xerox comment. Sure, it deserved a mention....but come one. They declared her the loser because even though she 'won' she didn't sweep the debates and he didn't drool and then pretty much declared the race over. :huh:

          Kris
          ~Mom of 5, married to an ID doc
          ~A Rolling Stone Gathers No Moss

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Tonight's democratic debates

            Originally posted by PrincessFiona
            Abigail,

            I'll tread lightly here, but...I think it is also very difficult for her to criticize him about these things. Towards the beginning of the primary season, any criticisms about his sweeping, grand imagery, for example were immediately twisted by the media to imply that it was racial...that he was 'preaching'...which led to images being put together that her criticisms were racially motivated.

            I think in that respect because we are so sensitive as a society about these issues (understandably so, btw) it makes the criticism more difficult.

            I could be wrong, of course.
            I would suggest that you are completely correct. His oration style is much like the preaching style you see with many Protestant, African-American preachers, especially those who are particularly well-known or have large congregations in urban areas. A poorly worded criticism of his style could easily be called "racist," under the argument that criticism of this style is somehow a criticism of a widely held African-American style of religious preaching. That is, implying that "he's too black" for broad appeal.

            She's really pinned in, because one wrong slip, and there'd be no redemption for her.

            However, it's also not really fair for her. No one is criticizing the STYLE of oration. Least of all, her. Yeah, there are some petty style things that one could criticize, and if someone wanted to be nasty they could call the criticisms a "racist" rejection of African-American "speaking styles" as seen primarily in African-American churches: he gets long-winded at times (many Protestant African-American Sunday services are significantly longer than their white counterparts) and a little over-the-top in terms of appealing to emotion rather than raw intellectual argument (that is, he sure doesn't sound like my Anglican priest at mass). (I'm not arguing that those critcisms are irrefutably, inherenly racist; I'm just observing that they could be construed that way.) However, anyone criticizing this style had better be pretty careful--the fact of the matter is, it is a very effective, inspiring, exciting method of speaking that really revs the base. Obama isn't doing well because of luck or because he's playing well to blacks by using a culturally familiar style: he's doing well because he has a great style and lots of people like it--regardless of whether they go to the WASPy-ish church in Greenwich, Connecticut or are used to 40-minute long Roman Catholic trimmed-down 7:00 AM mass.

            She should, however, be able to criticize the SUBSTANCE of his message, without raising the spector of racism. However, right now, the style and the substance seem to be treated as one-and-the-same. Any attack on his substance will be perceived by the Dems as an attack on his style, and the whole thing will be a messy disaster of implied racism (partially because many factions of the Dem party are so heightenly race conscious that everything is seen as implying or evoking race). So she's screwed...

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Tonight's democratic debates

              I agree, Hillary is screwed.

              I think it's pretty obvious that Obama will be our next president.

              And, I also think we're going to see buyer's remorse once he actually gets into the Oval Office (isn't it weird that I also would prefer HRC over Obama? ). It's going to be Jimmy Carter all over again - hold on to your seats! (That's OK, though, because Carter was followed by Reagan ). And, then everyone will be smacking their foreheads wondering why they didn't vote for Romney.... heh

              The question is: Can I survive (can we all survive) another Carter administration complete with the terrorist attacks/hostage crises, crazy gas prices, and naive foreign policy?

              Edit: Both HRC and McCain can point out that while Obama does, indeed, represent change - is change to the complete unknown really what we want? Do we all want Russian roulette that badly?
              Who uses a machete to cut through red tape
              With fingernails that shine like justice
              And a voice that is dark like tinted glass

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Tonight's democratic debates

                Originally posted by Tabula Rasa
                .

                I think it's pretty obvious that Obama will be our next president.
                I am not sure I'm at that conclusion yet. Frankly, I'm not 100% convinced, at this point, that Obama's a lock. Never. ever count a Clinton out. She performed much better than I thought she would last night. If I were a Dem, I might have been persuaded. And Tex, Ohio, and PA will be friendly toward her. Plus, even if she doesn't get the spreads that she needs there, there are always the superdelegates. We'll just have to see...

                As far as whether Obama will beat McCain, I'm not there, yet, either. McCain, for all his faults from a conservative perspective, has experience and a certain type of self-assurance and steadfastness that is pretty appealing. And, at some point, people wil grow weary of being incessantly preached at, no matter how eloquent the presentation.

                But, on any account, buckle up!

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Tonight's democratic debates

                  I think he's far left of the American people. Of course, the Democratic party has been moving farther and farther left over the decades so it's all relative.

                  And, he doesn't have much of a record in the U.S. Senate seeing as he is a freshman senator. He has a bit of a record as an Illinois legislator but that's almost all we have to go on. He's never actually run anything, in other words, so we don't know how he'll perform as a leader. That makes him an unknown change.

                  That's a reason Americans almost always vote a governor for president: Governors have already demonstrated their ability to hold the highest executive office for their respective (state) governments - so they are more "known" quantities in that they have leadership experience and a leadership record to which we can turn for an idea as to how they will perform in the future. How's that for a run-on sentence? Anyway, none of the three current candidates (Obama, HRC, McCain) has that type of executive experience. In a way, it makes all three of them "unknown" quantities. But, Obama, with his newness both to the public eye and federal politics in general, is the least known quantity of them all.
                  Who uses a machete to cut through red tape
                  With fingernails that shine like justice
                  And a voice that is dark like tinted glass

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Tonight's democratic debates

                    Originally posted by Tabula Rasa

                    The question is: Can I survive (can we all survive) another Carter administration complete with the terrorist attacks/hostage crises, crazy gas prices, and naive foreign policy?
                    That is such an absurd assumption, and exemplifies everything about the right-wing rhetoric that makes me nuts. Romney's ”If I fight on in my campaign, all the way to the convention, I would forestall the launch of a national campaign and make it more likely that Senator Clinton or Obama would win. And in this time of war, I simply cannot let my campaign, be a part of aiding a surrender to terror.” -- fearmongering at it's finest.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Tonight's democratic debates

                      The question is: Can I survive (can we all survive) another Carter administration complete with the terrorist attacks/hostage crises, crazy gas prices, and naive foreign policy?
                      The funny thing is....I read this quote and thought "Isn't that what I just endured for the last eight years?" :>
                      Angie
                      Gyn-Onc fellowship survivor - 10 years out of the training years; reluctant suburbanite
                      Mom to DS (18) and DD (15) (and many many pets)

                      "Where are we going - and what am I doing in this handbasket?"

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Tonight's democratic debates

                        Originally posted by Sheherezade
                        The question is: Can I survive (can we all survive) another Carter administration complete with the terrorist attacks/hostage crises, crazy gas prices, and naive foreign policy?
                        The funny thing is....I read this quote and thought "Isn't that what I just endured for the last eight years?" :>
                        No KIDDING! How could it possibly get any worse that it is right now?!!!
                        ~Mom of 5, married to an ID doc
                        ~A Rolling Stone Gathers No Moss

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Tonight's democratic debates

                          You're right Angie. As I was out running errands (and mulling this over in my head) I thought about how interesting that not ONE of our conservative members is lamenting the fact that GWB will be gone in less than a year. They've had 8 years of neocons running the show, and we're worse off now than we've been at any point during my adult life. Yet "change" and "optimism" is a pipe dream and will open us to more hatred and attacks from the rest of the world.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Tonight's democratic debates

                            Originally posted by PrincessFiona
                            Originally posted by Sheherezade
                            The question is: Can I survive (can we all survive) another Carter administration complete with the terrorist attacks/hostage crises, crazy gas prices, and naive foreign policy?
                            The funny thing is....I read this quote and thought "Isn't that what I just endured for the last eight years?" :>
                            No KIDDING! How could it possibly get any worse that it is right now?!!!
                            Well, the Iranian President could be holding American embassy hostages for 444 days, with a President that is completely ineffective or impotent to do anything about it. Or we could have outrageous inflation. Or gas lines/rationing. Or higher income taxes. Or, we could have another 9/11. Regardless of where you fall on the political spectrum , things could most definitely be worse. It is hard to be too nostaligic for Jimmy Carter. His foreign policy (for example, his great "peace treaty" for which he won a Nobel Peace Prize, the lynch pin of which had us paying N. Korea throughout the '90s NOT to make nuclear weapons--lesson: don't take totalitarian liars at their word) didn't work then, and it certainly won't work now.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Tonight's democratic debates

                              Originally posted by Jane
                              I thought about how interesting that not ONE of our conservative members is lamenting the fact that GWB will be gone in less than a year.
                              In large part, that may be because not too many conservatives consider GWB a true conservative.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Tonight's democratic debates

                                Well, he certianly campaigned that way, was represented that way, and had the support of the "conservative base".

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